Ford Gives Finger to America and American Employees

> That isn't actually true. In the USA you work 80 hrs or you
> don't work at all. And it isn't a malady isolated to the
> technoid arena.

You clearly have been retired so long that you're completely out of
touch with reality. I'm a developer, haven't worked more than 45
hours in 10 years, and neither has anybody I work with or any of my
old buddies at Chrysler or Textron. You just have no clue what
you're talking about.

Mani Deli > wrote in
:

> Unions aren't the problem.
>
> Cars built at Honda plants in Ohio are not unionized plants,
> wages and working environment parallel to unionized plants. The
> real reason they are a success is that they
> produce SUPERIOR cars.

Why do you think that is? I worked at the Chrysler Tech Center from
97-99 and the stories of what union guys got away with without being
fired were ridiculous. It was a real-life Seinfeld episode a few
times with guys sleeping under their desks. Guys sitting around
reading newspapers, smoking, drinking. It was ridiculous.

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:42:40 +0000, Larrybud wrote:

>> The Trucker wrote:
>> I trust the medical profession to make those decisions and that
>> is who will
>> be making those decisions. I certainly do not want you making
>> such decisions and given a proper representative government. I
>> will not be EVER have to worry about you getting anywhere close
>> to such a decision making position.<<<<
>>
>>
>> How can you be so naive as to think Doctors will have any say
>> over your health care ?
>
> What I'm amazed with people like The Trucker is the love affair of
> big government to run their lives. Government isn't good at running
> anything simple, let alone something as monsterous as health care.
>
> All you have to do is walk into a VA hospital to see government
> health care in action, and that's health care of individuals who
> nearly gave their lives for this country.

I "walk into a VA hospital" quite often. I have VA health care. It is
very well organized and seems to be quite efficient. The claim is that
Medicare has a lot less overhead then private sector insurance and the
physician I had (private) last year confirmed that. The Social Security
system has very low overhead and seems to work very well. The VA nor the
SS people "run my life" in any way. You are a zealot and an idiot who
does not grasp return to scale unless you are defending private
monopolies. Then it seems quite evident to you. As soon as you put
government on the label the eyes and ears close, the steel helmet slides
over the head and the brain goes on standby.


--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

wrote:

> LOL. And the private sector is doing such a wonderful job. We have
> worse health and pay twice as much for it. Go learn something about
> it, fool.

Really? Where I live (basically, anywhere I want to) we pay minimally
and get outstanding care. Just yesterday I talked to an 82-year old
lady about a another that had fallen off a ladder and broken ribs.

By rights (and practice apparently is some of the "free" systems) we
should all three be dead.

--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4td2lv

On 09 Jun 2008 18:26:57 GMT, Larrybud > wrote:

>Dave Head > wrote in
:
>
>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:33:51 -0400, Sam Buckland
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Chuck Reynolds wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cars built at Honda plants in Ohio are not unionized plants
>>>> and they produce superior cars. Their wages and working
>>>> environment parallel those of unionized plants.
>>
>> And they're that way because that's what it takes to keep people
>> from organizing into a union.
>>
>> If there were no possibility of having a union, those car plants
>> would be paying the same as they pay when they're built in
>> Mexico or China - a few dollars a day.
>
>If that was the case, all jobs that have no possibility of a union
>would earn minimum wage. I'm in the IT industry. Even with cheap
>Indian labor, wages are still very good, even here in Michigan.
>And no unions. Yours is an argument that just doesn't fly.

But IT work usually is associated with a degree. Factory work, OTOH, can be
done by most anyone fresh out of high school. IOW, there are hoardes of people
that can do it, so the price would sink, probably below minimum wage, probably
far below.

And... IT work would be paid much better, and the union would be suing the hell
out of people over the foreigners that are allowed to come here and take jobs
for less $$$ than is being paid to Americans doing the same job. Unions would
also be taking on age discrimination in the IT workplace, which is rampant.

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:53:16 +0000, Larrybud wrote:

> The Trucker > wrote in
> news >
>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:50:15 +0200, John Galt wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Dave Head" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 01:08:48 -0400, Roger Hamilton
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 01:54:23 GMT, Dave Head >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:33:51 -0400, Sam Buckland
>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Chuck Reynolds wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cars built at Honda plants in Ohio are not unionized
>>>>>>>> plants and they produce superior cars. Their wages and
>>>>>>>> working environment parallel those of unionized plants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And they're that way because that's what it takes to keep
>>>>>>people from organizing into a union.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If there were no possibility of having a union, those car
>>>>>>plants would be paying the same as they pay when they're
>>>>>>built in Mexico or China - a few dollars a day.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a union gets into a working environment, it is like
>>>>>getting stage four cancer, death is imminent.
>>>>
>>>> And without unions, you see what happens by looking at the
>>>> software industry -
>>>> routine 80 hour workweeks, falling wages, generally poor
>>>> working conditions,
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> I have no idea where you work, but it sounds like you need
>>> another job. We have thousands of developers who are still
>>> getting raises, 40-50 hour work weeks based on need, and do so
>>> in nice offices. I can't tell you that some development
>>> functions haven't moved to India, but not everything that you
>>> CAN move makes sense to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Who do you think should be enjoying prosperity within the USA,
>>>> if anyone?
>>>
>>> Anybody willing to work hard, understanding that wage is
>>> relative to experience, education, and aptitude.
>>
>> What if i don't want "prosperity" in the form of a McMasion and
>> an SUV? Can I work hard part time or work a lot but more slowly?
>> The envelope please........ (NOPE!)
>
> Of course you can. See, you can start your own company, and work
> whatever hours you want.

Horse crap. You cannot beat the return to scale of larger organizations.

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:54:47 +0000, Larrybud wrote:

>> I do have an idea of what I am talking about and I don't like
>> labor unions. All the rich software people and all the other
>> rich workers that are working their 80 hours should probably ask
>> themselves why they are doing it. Many will conclude that they
>> really have no choice. There is no other way to get health
>> insurance.
>
> See that checkbook in your hand? You self-insure. You self-buy-your
> -groceries, you self-buy-your-vehicle, you self-take-a-dump, you can
> self-insure. It's not against the law (yet).

Stupid. The trucking industry is a very good case in point. You cannot
own a truck and compete with those who own a thousand trucks. It is
economically perverse.

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

The Trucker > wrote in
news
> On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:42:40 +0000, Larrybud wrote:
>
>>> The Trucker wrote:
>>> I trust the medical profession to make those decisions and
>>> that is who will
>>> be making those decisions. I certainly do not want you making
>>> such decisions and given a proper representative government. I
>>> will not be EVER have to worry about you getting anywhere
>>> close to such a decision making position.<<<<
>>>
>>>
>>> How can you be so naive as to think Doctors will have any say
>>> over your health care ?
>>
>> What I'm amazed with people like The Trucker is the love affair
>> of big government to run their lives. Government isn't good at
>> running anything simple, let alone something as monsterous as
>> health care.
>>
>> All you have to do is walk into a VA hospital to see government
>> health care in action, and that's health care of individuals
>> who nearly gave their lives for this country.
>
> I "walk into a VA hospital" quite often. I have VA health care.
> It is very well organized and seems to be quite efficient.

Of course you think it's efficient, the payments for it are hidden
in all the taxation that is paid. Out of sight, out of mind for
you, I guess. Apparently you think that your personal experiences
are the "average" as well. Interesting little bubble you live in.


> The
> claim is that Medicare has a lot less overhead then private
> sector insurance and the physician I had (private) last year
> confirmed that.

The "overhead" you speak of was created BY GOVERNMENT. Geesh.


> The Social Security system has very low
> overhead and seems to work very well.

All ponzi schemes work great when there's enough people paying
into them.


> The VA nor the SS people "run my life" in any way.

Try and will your SS money to whomever you like when you die, and
then tell me they don't run your life.


> As soon as you
> put government on the label the eyes and ears close, the steel
> helmet slides over the head and the brain goes on standby.

Oh, on the contrary. Put government on the label and I perk up so
I can confirm what I've known for a long time: Government doesn't
work. It doesn't deliver the mail on time, and it certainly won't
improve health care in this country. Government health care is
Uncle Sam breaking your leg, then "giving" you a pair of crutches
while they tell you how lucky you are to have them.

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:56:53 +0000, Larrybud wrote:

>> That isn't actually true. In the USA you work 80 hrs or you
>> don't work at all. And it isn't a malady isolated to the
>> technoid arena.
>
> You clearly have been retired so long that you're completely out of
> touch with reality. I'm a developer, haven't worked more than 45
> hours in 10 years, and neither has anybody I work with or any of my
> old buddies at Chrysler or Textron. You just have no clue what
> you're talking about.

You live in a very isolated arena. I also lived there when I was younger.
I was a technoid from 1965 until 1999. I was my own boss. I was a
consultant and I did business _DIRECT_ corp to corp with Texaco, Pennzoil,
and Haliburton and others. In _ONE_ month I received $20k as a consultant
to Boeing. And in 1999 I was working 20 hours a week and earning more
than I earned for an 80 hour week driving a truck. But me wife had me
covered on her insurance policy as she was also a technoid with a degree.
But that is a very small pond. And H1B's and offshoring has done much to
curtail even the size of that pond. In most real BUSINESSES you must sink
an investment in hard _real_ capital assets. And the larger businesses
will destroy you with their scale.

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

>>> What if i don't want "prosperity" in the form of a McMasion
>>> and an SUV? Can I work hard part time or work a lot but more
>>> slowly?
>>> The envelope please........ (NOPE!)
>>
>> Of course you can. See, you can start your own company, and
>> work whatever hours you want.
>
> Horse crap. You cannot beat the return to scale of larger
> organizations.

Millions of people work for small companies started by regular
people. A lot of them, those that know what they're doing and
work hard, make a good living.

Hell, I do side software projects and can't help but make an extra
$15-20k a year on top of my 85k salary. I don't even have a
college degree.

But I'm glad to know that you've been so brainwashed to think that
you're a poor helpless man who NEED government to survive. I
actually have more faith in you than you do.