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#42
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In article > ,
Dave Lister > wrote: (Matthew Russotto) wrote in : > >> Let's see, in that category, we need >> >> 1) An efficient method of hydrogen production (not from fossil fuels) > >Why? Coal would be a good short term source for the energy needed. Solar, >nukes, wind and others longer term. Coal works, but it's high-polluting from the mine to gasification. And of course it's fossil. >> 2) An efficient method of transport > >That already exists for other gases including propane. That is true, but those methods do not work well for hydrogen. Hydrogen leaks from everything, and causes metals to become brittle. >> 3) Several efficient methods of storage (large scale and small scale) > >Already there. Not that I've seen. >> 4) An efficient and pollution-free means of using the hydrogen > >Hydrogen by definition is pollution free at the users end. Not true; you need a practical mobile fuel cell. Not quite there yet. >Clearly the >production pollution depends on where we get the energy. > >> In other words, hydrogen requires completely new technology from start >> to finish. > >Crapola. Overstatement, perhaps; the technology isn't _completely_ new. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
#43
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Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker-
: > In article > , > Dave Lister > wrote: > >> Alan Baker > wrote in >> : >> >> > In article > , >> > Dave Lister > wrote: >> > >> >> (Matthew Russotto) wrote in >> >> : >> >> >> >> > Let's see, in that category, we need >> >> > >> >> > 1) An efficient method of hydrogen production (not from fossil >> >> > fuels) >> >> >> >> Why? Coal would be a good short term source for the energy needed. >> >> Solar, nukes, wind and others longer term. >> >> >> >> > 2) An efficient method of transport >> >> >> >> That already exists for other gases including propane. >> >> >> >> > 3) Several efficient methods of storage (large scale and small >> >> > scale) >> >> >> >> Already there. >> >> >> >> > 4) An efficient and pollution-free means of using the hydrogen >> >> >> >> Hydrogen by definition is pollution free at the users end. Clearly >> >> the production pollution depends on where we get the energy. >> > >> > No, it's not. But used as fuel for a fuel cell, it is. >> >> Yes, it is if burned properly. > > Describe this proper burning which doesn't produce any NOx... http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=182 -- Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick Guantanamo: The Gulag of Our Time |
#44
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(Matthew Russotto) wrote in
: > Not true; you need a practical mobile fuel cell. Not quite there yet. http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=182 -- Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick Guantanamo: The Gulag of Our Time |
#45
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In article > ,
Dave Lister > wrote: (Matthew Russotto) wrote in : > > >> Not true; you need a practical mobile fuel cell. Not quite there yet. > >http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=182 Full of words like "research", "seeking to develop", "investigate", etc. Like I said, not quite there yet. Anyway, this article is on reducing NOx formation by reducing combustion temperatures. That necessarily reduces the efficiency of the engine. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
#46
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In article > ,
Dave Lister > wrote: > Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker- > : > > > In article > , > > Dave Lister > wrote: > > > >> Alan Baker > wrote in > >> : > >> > >> > In article > , > >> > Dave Lister > wrote: > >> > > >> >> (Matthew Russotto) wrote in > >> >> : > >> >> > >> >> > Let's see, in that category, we need > >> >> > > >> >> > 1) An efficient method of hydrogen production (not from fossil > >> >> > fuels) > >> >> > >> >> Why? Coal would be a good short term source for the energy needed. > >> >> Solar, nukes, wind and others longer term. > >> >> > >> >> > 2) An efficient method of transport > >> >> > >> >> That already exists for other gases including propane. > >> >> > >> >> > 3) Several efficient methods of storage (large scale and small > >> >> > scale) > >> >> > >> >> Already there. > >> >> > >> >> > 4) An efficient and pollution-free means of using the hydrogen > >> >> > >> >> Hydrogen by definition is pollution free at the users end. Clearly > >> >> the production pollution depends on where we get the energy. > >> > > >> > No, it's not. But used as fuel for a fuel cell, it is. > >> > >> Yes, it is if burned properly. > > > > Describe this proper burning which doesn't produce any NOx... > > http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=182 Apparently you didn't read it: "'The formation of NOx also occurs when you burn gasoline,' explains Heffel. 'But in the case of hydrogen we have a wide flammability range and, therefore, the engine can be tuned to have a lower combustion temperature. This in turn results in lower NOx emissions.'" "Lower NOx emissions", not *no* NOx emissions. -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard." |
#47
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Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker-
: > In article > , > Dave Lister > wrote: > >> Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker- >> : >> >> > In article > , >> > Dave Lister > wrote: >> > >> >> Alan Baker > wrote in >> >> : >> >> >> >> > In article > , >> >> > Dave Lister > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> (Matthew Russotto) wrote in >> >> >> : >> >> >> >> >> >> > Let's see, in that category, we need >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 1) An efficient method of hydrogen production (not from fossil >> >> >> > fuels) >> >> >> >> >> >> Why? Coal would be a good short term source for the energy needed. >> >> >> Solar, nukes, wind and others longer term. >> >> >> >> >> >> > 2) An efficient method of transport >> >> >> >> >> >> That already exists for other gases including propane. >> >> >> >> >> >> > 3) Several efficient methods of storage (large scale and small >> >> >> > scale) >> >> >> >> >> >> Already there. >> >> >> >> >> >> > 4) An efficient and pollution-free means of using the hydrogen >> >> >> >> >> >> Hydrogen by definition is pollution free at the users end. Clearly >> >> >> the production pollution depends on where we get the energy. >> >> > >> >> > No, it's not. But used as fuel for a fuel cell, it is. >> >> >> >> Yes, it is if burned properly. >> > >> > Describe this proper burning which doesn't produce any NOx... >> >> http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=182 > > Apparently you didn't read it: > > "'The formation of NOx also occurs when you burn gasoline,' explains > Heffel. 'But in the case of hydrogen we have a wide flammability range > and, therefore, the engine can be tuned to have a lower combustion > temperature. This in turn results in lower NOx emissions.'" > > "Lower NOx emissions", not *no* NOx emissions. Apparently you didn't read it, where it says that the emissions can be reduced to the normal background level. -- Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick Guantanamo: The Gulag of Our Time |
#48
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"Alan Baker" > wrote
> "'The formation of NOx also occurs when you burn gasoline,' explains > Heffel. 'But in the case of hydrogen we have a wide flammability range > and, therefore, the engine can be tuned to have a lower combustion > temperature. This in turn results in lower NOx emissions.'" Lower combustion temp == lower efficiency. Sorry, you lose. Floyd |
#49
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"fbloogyudsr" > wrote in news:11b0t9to28meu75
@corp.supernews.com: > "Alan Baker" > wrote >> "'The formation of NOx also occurs when you burn gasoline,' explains >> Heffel. 'But in the case of hydrogen we have a wide flammability range >> and, therefore, the engine can be tuned to have a lower combustion >> temperature. This in turn results in lower NOx emissions.'" > > Lower combustion temp == lower efficiency. Sorry, you lose. "Lose"? I dont think so. These problems are minor. -- Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick Guantanamo: The Gulag of Our Time |
#50
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