RealFeel FF Plugin for rFactor?

Anyone else using this plugin? I was impressed with it at first, but
it's becoming more of a headache. There are things about using it
that don't make any sense. For one thing, the damper setting doesn't
seem to work at all. In my experience the only thing that will change
the steering damping is the slider in the G25 windows controller setup
screen.

Also, it works differently with different mods, so you really need to
tweak it for each mod. They've made that relatively easy by storing
separate settings for each individual mod. The mod that I have the
most trouble with is the ALMS mod. I can't seem to get any steering
torque feedback at all.

For now I've gone back to stock rFactor FF. Any tips on working with
RealFeel are appreciated.

Thanks,

Pat Dotson
http://www.ultraforcesim.com

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Anyone else using this plugin? I was impressed with it at first, but
> it's becoming more of a headache. There are things about using it
> that don't make any sense. For one thing, the damper setting doesn't
> seem to work at all. In my experience the only thing that will change
> the steering damping is the slider in the G25 windows controller setup
> screen.
>
> Also, it works differently with different mods, so you really need to
> tweak it for each mod. They've made that relatively easy by storing
> separate settings for each individual mod. The mod that I have the
> most trouble with is the ALMS mod. I can't seem to get any steering
> torque feedback at all.
>
> For now I've gone back to stock rFactor FF. Any tips on working with
> RealFeel are appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pat Dotson
> http://www.ultraforcesim.com
>

Pat, you're noticing the likely reason ISI uses a different approach to FF.
Using steering arm torque alone to generate the FF unmasks any shortcomings
in the chassis, tire and suspension modeling. It means everything has to be
modeled with a degree of accuracy that the vast majority of mods just do not
reach, and while I haven't tried the ALMS mod, some mods are just garbage
with it. In fact I was trying out the Fabcar mod at the newest Lemans track
release (beautiful!) and while the car itself works OK with RF, I had to mix
the FF modes 50/50 to keep the wheel from shuddering violently in the
straights since the track has such extreme bumps modeled. They're overdone
for effect and work using the standard FF, but are way over the top when
you're really feeling the track surface through the wheel.

It's for reasons like that that I think RFFF really won't become the
absolute choice until mods get their numbers in order, which they can do
with the Carfactory design utility that the RFFF creators also released. I
have it set to hotkey between modes so I can revert to full ISI FF when
needed, but you can also use the "mixer" line to blend effects between RF
and ISI FF. All can be hotkeyed in-car.

What really sold me on it was driving the Formula ISI cars around the Indy
oval and switching between modes while trying setup changes. Using the
standard FF, almost nothing had any effect on the handling or lap times,
even going to full negative caster on both front wheels - it seemed totally
aero-dominated. But with RF, a big running caster split suddenly felt just
like it should - the car would pull left on the straights and almost steer
itself through the corners. First time I ever felt that to full effect in
any sim.

Once mods get updated or scratch built with Carfactory, RF should come into
it's own.

SB

> > wrote in message
> >
> > ... For one thing, the damper setting doesn't
> > seem to work at all. In my experience the only thing that will change
> > the steering damping is the slider in the G25 windows controller setup
> > screen.

Sorry for replying to my own post! After some more education on the
operation of RealFeel, turns out the steering damping setting is
completely unrelated to regular damping effects. The Realfeel
steering damping setting modifies the raw steering torque signal,
either smoothing it out or amplifying it.

Turns out that for me the best feel comes when the two settings,
MaxForceAtSteeringRack and the damping setting, are equal at 1500.
Actually, the MFSR is set to -1500 to match my regular rFactor G25
settings.

This setting works great with the ISI Sauber F1 car and the Panoz cars
I've tried so far. It doesn't seem to work at all with the stock FT's
and F3's, which is pretty disappointing. I mean, what are you really
simulating if you aren't going to take the time to properly construct
the car's suspension?

Does anyone know more about this "CarFactory" deal?


Pat Dotson
http://www.ultraforcesim.com

On Jun 25, 9:24 am, "Steve Blankenship"
<steveNOSPAMblankenshipATcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> What really sold me on it was ... a big running caster split suddenly felt just
> like it should - the car would pull left on the straights and almost steer
> itself through the corners. First time I ever felt that to full effect in
> any sim.

I found the same thing! It was really cool to have caster adjustments
work as they should. On one of the mods going to negative caster
causes the wheels to pull away from center as they should. It's so
good, at this point I don't have any interest in driving mods that
aren't modelled well enough to operate with RealFeel. I can't imagine
releasing a supposed car mod that doesn't have a properly modelled
suspension.

Beyond suspension structure, though, RealFeel brings out the
weaknesses in tire modelling. I find the GP'79 mod to be completely
unacceptable now. The tire modelling there is very weak. It's going
to take both a properly modelled suspension and tire parameters for
any future mod to be acceptable IMO. Scrub radius, mechanical trail -
all that stuff has to be right, plus the tire needs proper settings
for stiffness, damping and especially pneumatic trail.

The best tire modelling I've found so far is the Panoz stuff. The ISI
Sauber F1 is OK. I haven't tried the Formula ISI cars yet, but they
must be OK if you like them. The new ARCA sim will be good too.

Pat Dotson
http://www.ultraforcesim.com

wrote:

> [...]

> This setting works great with the ISI Sauber F1 car and the Panoz cars
> I've tried so far. It doesn't seem to work at all with the stock FT's
> and F3's, which is pretty disappointing. I mean, what are you really
> simulating if you aren't going to take the time to properly construct
> the car's suspension?

hi Pat,


I'm still tweaking, but i find the F3 and FT are working pretty well
with the MaxForceAtSteeringRack=-700 and the damper set to 3500.

The FBMW seems happiest with about -500 on the steering rack setting.

Of course, every car i've tried suffers from a lightness at dead center
when at speed and that very unrealistic pull to the sides at standstill
and very low speed. luckily, i haven't run into may instances where the
transition causes a problem once you get on the track.

If you haven't found it already, there's a channel in MoTec that is very
useful for tuning RealFeel: Steering Arm Force.

i find it much easier to sort out the spikes from the roadfeel feedback
with this graphic representation.


barrett

wrote:
> Anyone else using this plugin? I was impressed with it at first, but
> it's becoming more of a headache. There are things about using it
> that don't make any sense. For one thing, the damper setting doesn't
> seem to work at all. In my experience the only thing that will change
> the steering damping is the slider in the G25 windows controller setup
> screen.
>
> Also, it works differently with different mods, so you really need to
> tweak it for each mod. They've made that relatively easy by storing
> separate settings for each individual mod. The mod that I have the
> most trouble with is the ALMS mod. I can't seem to get any steering
> torque feedback at all.

Until the devs get their heads out of their asses and establish some
kind of standards, every mod and setting and track and surface will act
different. RFactor has its moments but in the end is one giant headache.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> > wrote in message
>> >
>> > ... For one thing, the damper setting doesn't
>> > seem to work at all. In my experience the only thing that will change
>> > the steering damping is the slider in the G25 windows controller setup
>> > screen.
>
> Sorry for replying to my own post! After some more education on the
> operation of RealFeel, turns out the steering damping setting is
> completely unrelated to regular damping effects. The Realfeel
> steering damping setting modifies the raw steering torque signal,
> either smoothing it out or amplifying it.
>
> Turns out that for me the best feel comes when the two settings,
> MaxForceAtSteeringRack and the damping setting, are equal at 1500.
> Actually, the MFSR is set to -1500 to match my regular rFactor G25
> settings.
>
> This setting works great with the ISI Sauber F1 car and the Panoz cars
> I've tried so far. It doesn't seem to work at all with the stock FT's
> and F3's, which is pretty disappointing. I mean, what are you really
> simulating if you aren't going to take the time to properly construct
> the car's suspension?
>
> Does anyone know more about this "CarFactory" deal?
>
>
> Pat Dotson
> http://www.ultraforcesim.com
>

Check out Carfactory at:
http://www.kangaloosh.com/cms/Welcom...7/Default.aspx

I think once modders get comfortable with this still evolving tool, the
quality of suspension modeling will go up enough to allow using RF FF most,
if not all the time. I understand the guys who did the 79 F1 mod are
already using it for the next update to that mod, which promises to be very
nice. Between tools like this and Bob's Track Builder
(http://www.bobstrackbuilder.net/) the general quality of car and track mods
should be heading seriously North. That track builder is another very cool
tool - it can even import GPS data, so you can recreate your commute to work
and drive it in an F1 car to see how much later you could sleep in the
morning... ;-)

SB

PS: I'll sneak in a reply to Uwe here too - Uwe, I only saw your post using
Google groups as none of your posts show in my regular newsreader for some
reason; the only time I ever see your posts is when they're quoted by
someone else.

Anywho, the hotkey is whatever you set it to be in the controls settings of
rFactor - it's the "toggle hardware plugins" menu choice you're looking for.
Keep scrolling down and you'll see it. The various Realfeel hotkeys are in
the readme for the latest version, 0.81 at:
http://rfgrc.co.uk/phpBB2/download.php?id=1300