Smart people buy Priuses

DougSlug wrote:
> "richard schumacher" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "DougSlug" > wrote:
>>
>>> Are you aware of the fact that Ford has licensed from the Toyota "hybrid
>>> synergy drive" system for use in the Escape hybrid?
>> Mmm, not quite what both Ford and Toyota say: Ford independently
>> invented a system which was so similar that they cross-licensed rather
>> than sue each other. An example of great minds thinking alike.
>
> I appreciate the clarification. I was either misinformed or I
> misinterpreted what I read about it.
>
> The Escape hybrid didn't seem to catch on, though, did it?
>
> - Doug
>
>

With a freshened design and updates to the mechanicals it's actually
doing pretty well with over 2600 of them sold in May and dealers
screaming for more.


" Spruced-up product and some marketing are paying off for Ford in
higher sales of its Ford Escape Hybrid and Mercury Mariner Hybrid.

The already-released 2008 models got an exterior makeover, the interior
was improved in terms of appearance and functionality, and extra
insulation was added for a quieter ride. Side and head curtain airbags
are now standard, as are automatic climate control and an MP3 player
input jack. The optional navigation system was revamped as well.

In addition, Ford has been featuring the hybrids in its national
advertising.

As a result, sales of the Escape Hybrid climbed to 2,680 in May from
1,890 in May. The average transaction price dipped only slightly from to
$27,953 from $27,997 in April. TCI dropped 43.2 percent to $650 from $1,145.

Similarly, Mercury Mariner sales rose to 534 units from 385 in April;
the average transaction price dipped to $29,632 from $30,237. TCI
dropped to $951 a vehicle from $1,744 in April.

And dealers nationwide are screaming for more. Days-to-turn of the Ford
Escape Hybrid is just 21 days, suggesting many dealers have none.
Days-to-turn on the Mariner Hybrid is higher at 40 but still low. "

http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/06/..._sales_in.html

wrote:
> On Jul 25, 7:41 am, Roger Blake > wrote:
>
>> In the case of the batteries, all batteries have a limited lifetime.
>>
>> If the Prius is using some exotic type of battery, such as the
>> Ford sodium-sulphur battery, it is difficult to estimate how
>> long that lifetime will be. However, if it uses a type of battery
>> that is used commercially in other devices (such as lithium-ion),
>> we can have an idea of the useful battery life. (How long does
>> the battery in your cell phone last before it loses significant
>> capacity?)
>>
>
> The Prius uses NiMH for the hybrid batteries, and an AGM lead-acid
> traditional 12v accessory battery.
>
> The NiMH hybrid batteries are controlled by a very good battery-
> management computer, such that it is never completely charged or
> drained, which greatly impacts its lifespan. As opposed to most
> consumer products, which regularly are drained and then overcharged...
>
>> How much energy was used, raw material used, and waste produced in the
>> manufacture of your "eco conscious" Prius, little one?
>
> Here's the 2004 Toyota Prius Green Report (life cycle assessment):
> http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf
> (you'll need to download the Japanese fonts for your PDF reader in
> order to read it, but the entire document is written in English.)
>
> Over the lifespan of the Prius, when compared to a comparable mid-
> sized gasoline vehicle, the Prius comes out ahead in the life cycle
> assessment (LCA) for airborne emissions for CO2, NOx, SOx, HC, but
> actually does worse for PM (thanks to the material and vehicle
> production stages). Lifespan is given as 10 years use/100,000km. The
> CO2 break-even point for the 2004 Prius compared to this unnamed
> gasoline vehicle is given at 20,000km. (more CO2 is emitted during
> Prius production, but the Prius makes up for it over it's driven
> lifetime.)
>

Only 100,000km? That can't be right, that's only about 62,000 miles.
If your lucky a Yugo would go that far! (OK maybe not a Yugo but a
Pinto would!).

Jeff DeWitt

On Jul 25, 4:31 am, Roger Blake > wrote:
> In article >, richard schumacher wrote:
> > The Rabbit was a smoky rattletrap.
>
> You miss the point, little one. (The point being that the acclaimed
> fuel efficiency of the Prius was reached decades ago using more
> conventional technology. The shortcomings of those early diesels
> have been overcome at this point in time.)
>
> Hybrids make no sense.
>
> --
> Roger Blake
> (Subtract 10s for email.)

I had a friend with a Rabbit diesel back in '83. Didn't run nearly as
well as the Prius and while it _sometimes_ went 50MPG, my Prius has
done 52+ for _all_ gas into it for 15000 miles - and it's faster,
quieter, roomier ... but the Rabbit seats _were_ more comfortable.

The household fuel consumption dropped by 13 gallons a week since we
got the Prius with no fewer miles driven.
Hybrids_do_ make sense in southern CA.

GG

> You miss the point, little one. (The point being that the acclaimed
> fuel efficiency of the Prius was reached decades ago using more
> conventional technology. The shortcomings of those early diesels
> have been overcome at this point in time.)

Wonderful! Now we can expect clean, reliable Diesels to conquer the
market. Diesel plug-in hybrids even more so, by virtue of their further
improvement in fuel economy and elimination of failure-prone
conventional transmissions.

"Jeff DeWitt" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think the current hybrid technology is very much a transitional
> technology, much as the turboprop was. Technologies like GM is developing
> for the Chevy Volt are going to become a lot more common than current
> hybrid technology.
>

I disagree with that. I see hybridization as a central enabling technology
for passenger cars for at least half a century. The primary power source may
not always be a combustion engine; hybridization works well with fuel cells,
as Toyota is finding. The essence of hybridization is to provide an
optimized load for the power generation regardless of what the nut behind
the wheel is doing with his right foot, and in so doing it makes
acceleration performance increasingly independent of the size of the power
source.

Even in the present generation (no pun) hybrids are disconnecting
accessories from the engine. I see that as a crucial step toward any future
cars.

BTW - turboprops are still a modern powerplant and eminently practical for
shorter hops where turbofans are just too inefficient or where runways are
too short. The wife and I just returned from Alaska and made the Vancouver
to Seattle leg on a Bombardier turboprop. When flying higher and faster
turbofans come into their own.

Mike

richard schumacher wrote:
> In article >,
> Roger Blake > wrote:
>
> > > In September, 2004, I bought a Prius for about the same price as a
> > > comparably equipped Camry would have cost, and I've averaged 46 MPG
> > > since then.
> >
> > About the same as a 30-year-old VW Rabbit diesel.
>
> The Rabbit was a smoky rattletrap.

My uncle drove a Rabbit Diesel w/ a 5-speed. At least until his
doctor told him to give it up after his ears started ringing from the
ear-splitting noise. It had the dual benefits of a loud diesel engine
coupled with virtually no sound insulation. While a modern car door
will go thud, the Rabbit diesel went clank.

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Jeff DeWitt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I think the current hybrid technology is very much a transitional
>> technology, much as the turboprop was. Technologies like GM is developing
>> for the Chevy Volt are going to become a lot more common than current
>> hybrid technology.
>>
>
> I disagree with that. I see hybridization as a central enabling technology
> for passenger cars for at least half a century. The primary power source may
> not always be a combustion engine; hybridization works well with fuel cells,
> as Toyota is finding. The essence of hybridization is to provide an
> optimized load for the power generation regardless of what the nut behind
> the wheel is doing with his right foot, and in so doing it makes
> acceleration performance increasingly independent of the size of the power
> source.
>
> Even in the present generation (no pun) hybrids are disconnecting
> accessories from the engine. I see that as a crucial step toward any future
> cars.
>
> BTW - turboprops are still a modern powerplant and eminently practical for
> shorter hops where turbofans are just too inefficient or where runways are
> too short. The wife and I just returned from Alaska and made the Vancouver
> to Seattle leg on a Bombardier turboprop. When flying higher and faster
> turbofans come into their own.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

I stand corrected on turboprops, however please note I said the CURRENT
hybrid technology. A Prius or similar car is more of a gas powered car
with an electric assist and because of that it's a lot more complex and
expensive than it needs to be (and so also less efficient).

They ARE an advancement over conventional drivetrains, and your right
about the usefulness of disconnecting the engine from the accessories,
that is going to become increasingly important as automotive technology
advances.

And of course you do realize there is a form of hybrid technology that
has been performing a vital roll in Americas transportation system for
the last 50 years or so... the diesel locomotive.

Jeff DeWitt

In alt.autos.toyota.prius Jeff DeWitt > wrote:
> And of course you do realize there is a form of hybrid technology that
> has been performing a vital roll in Americas transportation system for
> the last 50 years or so... the diesel locomotive.

Although many diesel locomotive are diesel electric, there's no buffer
battery between the diesel engine and the train. The generator-traction
motor setup is nothing more than the system that transmit power from the
engine to the wheels.

cu
.\\arc

Marc Gerges wrote:
> In alt.autos.toyota.prius Jeff DeWitt > wrote:
>> And of course you do realize there is a form of hybrid technology that
>> has been performing a vital roll in Americas transportation system for
>> the last 50 years or so... the diesel locomotive.
>
> Although many diesel locomotive are diesel electric, there's no buffer
> battery between the diesel engine and the train. The generator-traction
> motor setup is nothing more than the system that transmit power from the
> engine to the wheels.
>
> cu
> .\\arc

True, but having diesel engines and electric motors meets the dictionary
definition of hybrid.

"something (as a power plant, vehicle, or electronic circuit) that has
two different types of components performing essentially the same function"

Both the diesel engine and the electric motors produce mechanical energy
sufficient to operate the locomotive... and yes I realize I'm being a
bit picky here <G>


Jeff DeWitt

"Jeff DeWitt" > wrote in message
...
> Marc Gerges wrote:
>> In alt.autos.toyota.prius Jeff DeWitt > wrote:
>>> And of course you do realize there is a form of hybrid technology that
>>> has been performing a vital roll in Americas transportation system for
>>> the last 50 years or so... the diesel locomotive.
>>
>> Although many diesel locomotive are diesel electric, there's no buffer
>> battery between the diesel engine and the train. The generator-traction
>> motor setup is nothing more than the system that transmit power from the
>> engine to the wheels.
>>
>> cu
>> .\\arc
>
> True, but having diesel engines and electric motors meets the dictionary
> definition of hybrid.
>
> "something (as a power plant, vehicle, or electronic circuit) that has two
> different types of components performing essentially the same function"
>
> Both the diesel engine and the electric motors produce mechanical energy
> sufficient to operate the locomotive... and yes I realize I'm being a bit
> picky here <G>
>
>
> Jeff DeWitt
>
If I'm understanding it right, the electric part is merely a transmission
rather than a motive source. Oddly, "how stuff works" still refers to it as
a hybrid system although there is no secondary source of electric power; it
comes straight from the diesel. The train doesn't move if the engines aren't
generating power. Now it's my turn to be picky ;-)
http://travel.howstuffworks.com/diesel-locomotive.htm

Mike