2.2 turbo EFI, cold-start problem; open/close loop? suggestions?

and yes the 2.2 multipoint injection 16 valve engine does not have a
distributor. all others do
"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
>
> > 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,
>
> ...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
> sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
> mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!
>
> > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
> > sensors i would check the the basic timing
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
> timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.
>
> > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
> > problems,
>
> Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
> pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
> runtime.
>
> > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
> > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
> > ENGINE.
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
> 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.
>

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:

> I wont get in an argue match with you,and i dont play those games you play
> either. i am posting as much info on a subject that i can, If you read, it
> states EFI (electronic Fuel Injection) which means only 1 injector,

Try again, Max. Not only does he state "turbo" right in the subject line
-- which means 4 injectors, since all of CHrysler's 2.2 Turbo setups have
had multipoint -- but he states 1992 Spirit R/T. That means 2.2 Turbo III,
which not only means 4 injectors, but also DIS.

> i posted to cover both engines because i wasnt sure of the engine

Read harder next time.

> that engine does have a distributor in it and is
> adjustable,

Sorry, no. Looks like you need to go back to your FSMs. The Turbo III
engine *does not* have a distributor in it. There was a 2.2 turbo 16v
engine that did have a distributor in it; it was the one in the Chrysler's
TC by Maserati, but since the OP stated "1992 Spirit R/T", we know that's
not what he's got.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:

> I wont get in an argue match with you,and i dont play those games you play
> either. i am posting as much info on a subject that i can, If you read, it
> states EFI (electronic Fuel Injection) which means only 1 injector,

Try again, Max. Not only does he state "turbo" right in the subject line
-- which means 4 injectors, since all of CHrysler's 2.2 Turbo setups have
had multipoint -- but he states 1992 Spirit R/T. That means 2.2 Turbo III,
which not only means 4 injectors, but also DIS.

> i posted to cover both engines because i wasnt sure of the engine

Read harder next time.

> that engine does have a distributor in it and is
> adjustable,

Sorry, no. Looks like you need to go back to your FSMs. The Turbo III
engine *does not* have a distributor in it. There was a 2.2 turbo 16v
engine that did have a distributor in it; it was the one in the Chrysler's
TC by Maserati, but since the OP stated "1992 Spirit R/T", we know that's
not what he's got.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:07:46 -0500, "Daniel J. Stern"
> wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
>
>> 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,
>
>...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
>sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
>mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!
>
>> Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
>> sensors i would check the the basic timing
>
>Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
>timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.
>
>> vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
>> problems,
>
>Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
>pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
>runtime.
>
>> there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
>> NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
>> ENGINE.
>
>Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
>2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.


me:
"eh? shorted O2 sensor heater wires?.. !!... hmmm."

clomp, clomp, clomp, slam. (dnstairs to the garage...)
tinker about, clink, $@#$!, clink.
yank! (sound of disconnected O2 wire).

let's see: OBD II, 34 degreess. (coolant/air-charge...)
Click? (Ignition...) Vroooomm. Puuuurrrrr ...

WTF ?!

now here, i was looking at the ground straps, DIS/coil-thingies,
cam sensor, this/that/what-else ...

Dan, good catch! ...when'd you run across this one?
Maybe there's a good story (lesson...) here.

funny thing is, the o2 wires look reasonable,
not KFC crispy like some I've seen.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:07:46 -0500, "Daniel J. Stern"
> wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
>
>> 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,
>
>...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
>sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
>mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!
>
>> Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
>> sensors i would check the the basic timing
>
>Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
>timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.
>
>> vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
>> problems,
>
>Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
>pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
>runtime.
>
>> there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
>> NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
>> ENGINE.
>
>Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
>2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.


me:
"eh? shorted O2 sensor heater wires?.. !!... hmmm."

clomp, clomp, clomp, slam. (dnstairs to the garage...)
tinker about, clink, $@#$!, clink.
yank! (sound of disconnected O2 wire).

let's see: OBD II, 34 degreess. (coolant/air-charge...)
Click? (Ignition...) Vroooomm. Puuuurrrrr ...

WTF ?!

now here, i was looking at the ground straps, DIS/coil-thingies,
cam sensor, this/that/what-else ...

Dan, good catch! ...when'd you run across this one?
Maybe there's a good story (lesson...) here.

funny thing is, the o2 wires look reasonable,
not KFC crispy like some I've seen.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 wrote:

> Dan, good catch! ...when'd you run across this one?

Autumn 1998. I pulled in from getting groceries, shut down, went in and
put the groceries away. Ten minutes later, went to use the car
again...crank, but no fuel pump, no "Check Engine" codes, no spark, no
nothin'. The O2S wires (all four of them) had fallen out of their retainer
clips on the underside of the air cleaner baseplate heat shield and onto
the exhaust manifold, still hot from the grocery trip, and the insulation
got vaporised.

As soon as I hit the ignition, the direct short to ground in the O2S
heater and sense circuits took out two fuselinks -- Zap, no power to the
SBEC, no power to the ASD, no power to the fuel pump or ignition.

I replaced the fuselinks in an unauthorized but effective manner, then
repaired the O2S harness using 650C-tolerant wire (robbed from a discarded
kitchen oven!), rerouting the new wires *over* the air cleaner baseplate,
and the car started right up.

> funny thing is, the o2 wires look reasonable, not KFC crispy like some
> I've seen.

Check them very closely. The fault could be within the O2 sensor itself
(heater element internally shorted to ground) -- especially if somebody
installed a Bosch unit (junk-junk-junk...always use NTK, Echlin,
BlueStreak or Mopar, but never Bosch.)

Fix the problem soon or you'll lunch your catalytic converter, just like
my own R/T did the last time I was dumb enough to use Chumpion spark
plugs.

DS
225 at torque dot net

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 wrote:

> Dan, good catch! ...when'd you run across this one?

Autumn 1998. I pulled in from getting groceries, shut down, went in and
put the groceries away. Ten minutes later, went to use the car
again...crank, but no fuel pump, no "Check Engine" codes, no spark, no
nothin'. The O2S wires (all four of them) had fallen out of their retainer
clips on the underside of the air cleaner baseplate heat shield and onto
the exhaust manifold, still hot from the grocery trip, and the insulation
got vaporised.

As soon as I hit the ignition, the direct short to ground in the O2S
heater and sense circuits took out two fuselinks -- Zap, no power to the
SBEC, no power to the ASD, no power to the fuel pump or ignition.

I replaced the fuselinks in an unauthorized but effective manner, then
repaired the O2S harness using 650C-tolerant wire (robbed from a discarded
kitchen oven!), rerouting the new wires *over* the air cleaner baseplate,
and the car started right up.

> funny thing is, the o2 wires look reasonable, not KFC crispy like some
> I've seen.

Check them very closely. The fault could be within the O2 sensor itself
(heater element internally shorted to ground) -- especially if somebody
installed a Bosch unit (junk-junk-junk...always use NTK, Echlin,
BlueStreak or Mopar, but never Bosch.)

Fix the problem soon or you'll lunch your catalytic converter, just like
my own R/T did the last time I was dumb enough to use Chumpion spark
plugs.

DS
225 at torque dot net