Car Safety Report: Bigger Is Better

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034

Heck, I always knew that.
cuhulin

On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>
> Heck, I always knew that.
> cuhulin
>

Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.

On 06/15/2011 04:07 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
>> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>>
>> Heck, I always knew that.
>> cuhulin
>>
>
> Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
> automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
> the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.

People keep saying things like this, but I can't remember the last time
I even felt the ABS engage... and traction control has made my life
less safe, if I have the loud pedal floored, I'm probably trying to
merge into heavy traffic, if a wheel hits a little patch of sand or
whatnot please don't cut off all the power. So really, these electronic
tricks are doing essentially nothing for me...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 6/15/2011 12:24 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 06/15/2011 04:07 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
>>> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>>>
>>> Heck, I always knew that.
>>> cuhulin
>>>
>>
>> Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
>> automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
>> the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.
>
> People keep saying things like this, but I can't remember the last time
> I even felt the ABS engage... and traction control has made my life less
> safe, if I have the loud pedal floored, I'm probably trying to merge
> into heavy traffic, if a wheel hits a little patch of sand or whatnot
> please don't cut off all the power. So really, these electronic tricks
> are doing essentially nothing for me...
>
> nate
>

It was predicted that ESC would dramatically cut down traffic deaths
years ago. The reduction in deaths may be because of increased driver
control with ESC, or maybe it ain't. I'm betting that it is. Maybe there
are fewer roll-overs with ESC and maybe there ain't. I'm betting that
high-center-of-gravity vehicles are safer these days because of ESC.

As far as your ABS goes, try stomping on the brakes under low traction
conditions to see how that system works. I've activated the ABS myself.
I'm pretty sure you'll know when it engages.

Nate Nagel > wrote in news:ita19629n8
@news2.newsguy.com:

> On 06/15/2011 04:07 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
>>> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>>>
>>> Heck, I always knew that.
>>> cuhulin
>>>
>>
>> Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
>> automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
>> the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.
>
> People keep saying things like this, but I can't remember the last time
> I even felt the ABS engage... and traction control has made my life
> less safe, if I have the loud pedal floored, I'm probably trying to
> merge into heavy traffic, if a wheel hits a little patch of sand or
> whatnot please don't cut off all the power. So really, these electronic
> tricks are doing essentially nothing for me...
>


Anecdotally, ABS seems to cause all sorts of problems in my area, which has
significant amounts of ice and snow in winter. The most common complaint I
hear is that the ABS refused to allow the car to stop, and allowed it to
keep moving forward, often right into an intersection. Remember, the job of
ABS is to keep the tires from sliding, not to stop the car. Nobody I've
personally talked to--who has had the ABS kick in for them--likes ABS, or
even wants it anymore. One guy just bought a new Hyundai Accent, and was
thrilled to find it came without ABS.

Statistically, my understanding is that it's difficult, if not impossible
to point to ANY sort of collision reductions that might be due to ABS.


--
Tegger

dsi1 > wrote in news:4df868f1$0$17725$a8266bb1
@newsreader.readnews.com:

> On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
>> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>>
>> Heck, I always knew that.
>> cuhulin
>>
>
> Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
> automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
> the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.



"Improved in the ratings," you say. ABS looked good in "ratings" as well.

I suspect that in real-life, any theoretical benefit from ESC will be
overwhelmed by moral hazard.


--
Tegger

dsi1 > wrote:
>
>Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
>automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
>the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.

I would disagree completely.

Without ESC, a squirrely car will be squirrely. You can feel that the CG
is too high, or that it has stability problems for other reasons. You can
feel it, so you slow down.

With ESC, the instability is hidden as long as the feedback keeps working.
The car is in fact dynamically stable as long as it stays within the
envelope where the ESC operates properly.

But... with ESC there is an abrupt point at which you get out of that
envelope and all of a sudden everything becomes very unstable dramatically.

So, although ESC does improve stability under normal circumstances, the
point at which the system becomes unstable is an abrupt one instead of a
gradual one, and I think that can be dangerous.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Jun 15, 1:43*am, Tegger > wrote:
> dsi1 > wrote in news:4df868f1$0$17725$a8266bb1
> @newsreader.readnews.com:
>
> > On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
> >>http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>
> >> Heck, I always knew that.
> >> cuhulin
>
> > Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
> > automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
> > the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.
>
> "Improved in the ratings," you say. ABS looked good in "ratings" as well.
>
> I suspect that in real-life, any theoretical benefit from ESC will be
> overwhelmed by moral hazard.
>
> --
> Tegger

I won't say anything about ABS. All I suggest is a way to demo the
system.

On Jun 15, 2:28*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> dsi1 > wrote:
>
> >Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
> >automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
> >the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.
>
> I would disagree completely.
>
> Without ESC, a squirrely car will be squirrely. *You can feel that the CG
> is too high, or that it has stability problems for other reasons. *You can
> feel it, so you slow down.
>
> With ESC, the instability is hidden as long as the feedback keeps working..
> The car is in fact dynamically stable as long as it stays within the
> envelope where the ESC operates properly.
>
> But... with ESC there is an abrupt point at which you get out of that
> envelope and all of a sudden everything becomes very unstable dramatically.
>
> So, although ESC does improve stability under normal circumstances, the
> point at which the system becomes unstable is an abrupt one instead of a
> gradual one, and I think that can be dangerous.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

You're not going to activate the ESC unless you you get into an
emergency situation. Is that your style of driving? Sounds exciting. I
don't want to argue the point, we'll find out soon enough if this
computer controlled safety system really works.

On Jun 15, 6:56*am, dsi1 > wrote:
> On 6/15/2011 12:24 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 06/15/2011 04:07 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> >> On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
> >>>http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>
> >>> Heck, I always knew that.
> >>> cuhulin
>
> >> Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
> >> automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
> >> the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.
>
> > People keep saying things like this, but I can't remember the last time
> > I even felt the ABS engage... and traction control has made my life less
> > safe, if I have the loud pedal floored, I'm probably trying to merge
> > into heavy traffic, if a wheel hits a little patch of sand or whatnot
> > please don't cut off all the power. So really, these electronic tricks
> > are doing essentially nothing for me...
>
> > nate
>
> It was predicted that ESC would dramatically cut down traffic deaths
> years ago. The reduction in deaths may be because of increased driver
> control with ESC, or maybe it ain't. I'm betting that it is. Maybe there
> are fewer roll-overs with ESC and maybe there ain't. I'm betting that
> high-center-of-gravity vehicles are safer these days because of ESC.
>
> As far as your ABS goes, try stomping on the brakes under low traction
> conditions to see how that system works. I've activated the ABS myself.
> I'm pretty sure you'll know when it engages.

Oh, I know what ABS feels like... in another life I actually logged a
decent amount of test track time working on the stuff. Maybe in part
because I learned to drive in cars of the pre-ABS era, and in fact
only ever had one daily driver *with* ABS (most of my personal
vehicles tend to be thoroughly pre-enjoyed before I get them) before
taking a position with a company car, it just doesn't ever get used.

nate