New Vette C6; 500hp 427cu in?

Joe wrote:
> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>> have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year.
>>>>>> The Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground than
>>>>>> the same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4 seconds
>>>>> off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster than
>>>> the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>> The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>> show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>> C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>> will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>> does)
>>>>>
>>>>> Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>> the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are
>>>>> facts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory numbers
>>>> are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back. The only
>>>> thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The Terminator
>>>> puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven)
>>>> and is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>> Here's some facts for you......
>>>> http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>> not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>> different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>> different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette guys
>>>>>> think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think so... ---
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the '03
>>>> & '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as well
>>>> for thousands less.
>>>
>>> I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>> beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends. A
>>> C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>
>> A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>> the Z06 is only a half second faster.
>
> Easily? No way. Maybe on a good day with a good driver, but you get
> what you pay for. A C5 is simply a better overall car.

NO, a stock supercharged Cobra will out 1/4 a stock C5 Vette any day of the
week. You don't need a good day or a good driver to do that. Now the Cobra
will need a CAI, cat-back, a good driver, and a bit o'luck to do the same to
a C5 Z06. You need to get out of the Magazines and into the real world. The
C5 is a better car for who, not me. It's interior is worse than any Mustang,
although the Cobra has a compromised IRS the Vette IRS is an old school
piece and isn't much better. The engine is strong but a few cubes will do
that, I'd rather have more power per cube. I also like my back seats and
trunk space so the Corvette is not a better car than my Cobra to me. If I'd
wanted a Corvette I would have bought a Corvette. It would have been nice if
Ford would have used an aluminum block and did a bit more with the IRS. Then
the Cobra would have been equal handling with the Vette and faster too. What
would you bitch about then?

>> The Cobra also handles better
>> than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would have
>> no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>> transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight distribution.
>
> Again, maybe on a good day with a good driver (and a bad driver in the
> Corvette). Generally speaking, the Corvette will beat the Cobra.

On a loose track the Cobra could make up for any loss in the corner on the
straight, remember it's putting almost 80 more horses to the ground than a
C5. On a tighter track where alot of weight is transferd the C5 has the
advantage and the Cobra's power will be unable to make up the difference.

>>> The new C6 Vette is even
>>> better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the strip
>>> and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but putting one up
>>> against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a big
>>> disappointment.
>>
>> I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>> stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my point
>> about the base C5.
>
> Let's be real here. The C5 is at least as fast and certainly handles
> better than the Cobra. On a good day, the Cobra may beat the C5 in a
> straight line, but that's all.
>
>>> BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My
>>> guess is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling for
>>> under $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for stock.
>>
>> Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it running
>> with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors are way off
>> base (that it will out run and handle as well as a base C6)?
>
> Rumors are just that. The fact is that where the Cobra was
> competitive in '04, it's far behind in '05. Look at the numbers for
> the Cobra and the C6 - no comparison.

I'm not compairing the Cobra to the C6, my point was that the Cobra puts
down more power than the new C6. Of course the C6 is a better performer than
the Cobra, it's a revised platform from the C5. I'm trying to compare same
year vehicles here, the next Cobra (or what ever it's called) will have the
same performance as the C6.

> As for the Z06 vs. GT, we'll just have to wait and see.
>
>> The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>> question about that.
>
> There certainly is. BTW, the C5 isn't current - it's last year's
> model. We're in 2005.

I know this, again I'm referencing same year models. The "current" Cobra
('03 & '04) and the "current" Corvette ('03 & '04) why is this so hard to
understand?

>> The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>> sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold to
>> the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it so
>> hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform will
>> not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle close to
>> if not as well as it does?
>
> Because nobody knows when the "new Cobra" will be built, or even if it
> will be built. It's all conjecture at this point.

It's already been in the press that the new Cobra will be at the New York
Auto Show in March. Get with the program here...

>> I know the new platform will still have
>> some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to handling as
>> other factors that have been corrected from the old chassis. I can't
>> believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the Corvette
>> on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to the curb.
>> Makes no sense...
>
> Nobody's kicking the Mustang to the curb. It's a great car for the
> price. The Corvette is simply better (i.e., you get what you pay
> for). Here are some facts:
>
> a) There's no Cobra in '05.

So what... The cobra is not, and never has been an option nevery year. It is
a limited production automobile.

> b) The C6 is an awesome car available now.

Awesome to some, I personally don't like it and wouldn't own one.

> c) The Z06 will be an even more awesome car available later this year.

Awesom like the Viper which is another ugly car I'd never own.

> d) Nobody knows what the "new Cobra" will really be.

The rumors are out there and most have it a 5.4L Whipple Twin-Screw aluminum
block (maybe the GT block) with 3 valve heads, 6 speed, and IRS. The rumors
also point toward an automatic option (maybe a sequential manual) and live
axle option. The C6 Z06 was also only rumors months ago, "so what" the Cobra
info is only rumors.

> e) Nobody knows when the "new Cobra" will be built.

Somebody does, they just aint tellin'. We'll see what is shown two months
from now in New York.

--
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
---

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
> WraithCobra wrote:
>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>
>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>
>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>> have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year. The
>>>>>> Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground than the
>>>>>> same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4 seconds
>>>>> off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster than
>>>> the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>> The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>> show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>> C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>> will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>> does)
>>>>>
>>>>> Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>> the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are facts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory numbers
>>>> are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back. The only
>>>> thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The Terminator
>>>> puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven) and
>>>> is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>> Here's some facts for you......
>>>> http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>> not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>> different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>> different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette guys
>>>>>> think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think so... ---
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the '03 &
>>>> '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as well for
>>>> thousands less.
>>>
>>> I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>> beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends. A
>>> C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>
>>
>> A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>> the Z06 is only a half second faster. The Cobra also handles better
>> than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would have
>> no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>> transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight distribution.
>
> I wouldn't say the Cobra, stock vs. stock, would easily outrun a C5 in
> the 1/4 mile. The Vette has better traction and a weight advantage
> thats good for the equivalent of 40-50 hp. Where the Cobra shines is
> when the engine are done but this is the case with most forced
> induction engines.

Look it up, the '03 & '04 Cobras run faster 1/4 times than compareable year
Corvettes.

>>> The new C6 Vette is even
>>> better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the strip
>>> and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but putting one up
>>> against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a big
>>> disappointment.
>>
>>
>> I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>> stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my point
>> about the base C5.
>
> Aside from the engine changes the C6 isn't that far off from a C5 in
> handling. In fact, the C6 isn't a new chassis but a tweaked version
> of the C5. While power to the ground is important that is just one
> component that makes for a good all around performance car.

This is kinda what I'm trying to explain. The Cobra is a good all around
performance car. The Vette handles better, the Cobra's faster. the Vette has
better aero, the Cobra has back seats and a trunk. Different cars but a
similar performance level considering the differences in the functionality
of the two.

>>> BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My guess
>>> is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling for under
>>> $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for stock.
>>
>>
>> Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it running
>> with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors are way off
>> base (that it will out run and handle as well as a base C6)?
>
> I don't know what the new Cobra will be but I suspect it will have the
> same drive train as the '03-'04 cars. IMO, that is one of the best,
> if not the best, engine ever put in a mass produced automobile. Why
> mess with success? I think Ford will probably tweak it to make a
> little more than 400 hp.

It already does make more than 400, dyno results on stock Cobras put the
output at closer to 425. The next Cobra will most likely use an aluminum
block 5.4L Twin-Screw with 450 - 550 rated horsepower similar to the GT
engine. It may or may not be the same block used in the GT. It has been
rumored that the Lightning and Cobra were to use the same engine before the
Lightning was put on the back burner. Ford used the iron 4.6L block in the
current Cobra for warrantee and longevity reasons. A 5.4L would be able to
make more power with less stress on the block, the Twin-Screw also helps in
this respect so a lighter aluminum block can be used.

>> The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>> question about that. The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>> sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold to
>> the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it so
>> hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform will
>> not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle close to
>> if not as well as it does? I know the new platform will still have
>> some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to handling as
>> other factors that have been corrected from the old chassis.
>
> The problem the Mustang has when put up against the Vette is a result
> of the intended use of each car. The Mustang is meant to be a daily
> driver that is affordable. This results in driving positions, car's
> center of gravity location etc. that is not optimized for all out
> performance. The chassis is a derivative of a four door sedan which
> has compromises from the standpoint of performance. This isn't a bad
> thing. It's just what Ford had to do to keep it affordable and
> functional for its intended buyers. While the chassis is light years
> ahead of the old Fox platform it still has compromises that affect
> the car's performance. I think Ford has hit a home run with the new
> Stang but this doesn't mean it is a competitor for the Vette.

I think a Cobra on the new platform will at least have the same small
performance gap that the current Cobra has with the Vette now. The new
Mustang platform is, don't quote me here, 32% more ridgid than the Fox4
chasis.

> Now the Vette is a completely different story. It was designed from
> the ground up to be a two seater sports car. No major compromises
> were necessary during its design. This means independent rear
> suspensions that aren't an after thought retrofit, lower center of
> mass, trannies located behind the driver to optimize weight
> distribution, front suspension that doesn't compromise for engine
> size (like in the new Mustang) and many, many other items that
> enhance performance. All these things add up to a car that is quite
> a capable performer even for the price of $50k. Hell, you can't buy
> a loaded pickup truck for much less than that and many SUV's cost
> more!

There are other automobiles that will out handle the Vette for alot less,
now these will not have the power of a V8 but the Vette isn't the best
handler out there for the money either.

>> I can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the
>> Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to the
>> curb. Makes no sense...
>
> I'm not kicking the Mustang to the curb. I have one sitting in my
> garage that I'll keep until I'm taking a dirt nap. That being said, I
> also won't take a position of making the Mustang out to be more than
> what it is - a very good pony car at a very good price that can be a
> daily driver, if necessary. IMO, the new Mustang fills this role
> almost to perfection but that's about as far as I will go until I see
> what Ford does with the Cobra version. I do know that they can only
> do so much with the car (i.e chassis) because of it's basic design
> function.

I'm not making it more than it is either, I'm stating facts. The Cobra is
faster and more powerful than the Vette. (comparing same years here) The
Vette may handle better, but not by a wide enough margin in some cases to
beat a Cobra. (I said some cases) The Vette is a two seat sports car where
the Cobra has back seats and a usable trunk, which I prefer to have. And if
I owned a Vette I'd at least know who my comptition was, or soon find out.
--
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
---

Joe wrote:
> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Joe wrote:
>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>>>> have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year.
>>>>>>>> The Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground
>>>>>>>> than the same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4
>>>>>>> seconds off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster
>>>>>> than the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>>>> The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>>>> show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>>>> C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>>>> will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>>>> does)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>>>> the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are
>>>>>>> facts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory
>>>>>> numbers are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back.
>>>>>> The only thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The
>>>>>> Terminator puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06
>>>>>> (dyno proven) and is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>>>> Here's some facts for you......
>>>>>> http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>>>> not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>>>> different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>>>> different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette
>>>>>>>> guys think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think
>>>>>>>> so... --- Mike
>>>>>>>> Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the
>>>>>> '03 & '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as
>>>>>> well for thousands less.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>>>> beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends.
>>>>> A C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>>>
>>>> A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>>>> the Z06 is only a half second faster.
>>>
>>> Easily? No way. Maybe on a good day with a good driver, but you
>>> get what you pay for. A C5 is simply a better overall car.
>>
>> NO, a stock supercharged Cobra will out 1/4 a stock C5 Vette any day
>> of the week. You don't need a good day or a good driver to do that.
>> Now the Cobra will need a CAI, cat-back, a good driver, and a bit
>> o'luck to do the same to a C5 Z06. You need to get out of the
>> Magazines and into the real world. The C5 is a better car for who,
>> not me. It's interior is worse than any Mustang, although the Cobra
>> has a compromised IRS the Vette IRS is an old school piece and isn't
>> much better. The engine is strong but a few cubes will do that, I'd
>> rather have more power per cube. I also like my back seats and trunk
>> space so the Corvette is not a better car than my Cobra to me. If
>> I'd wanted a Corvette I would have bought a Corvette. It would have
>> been nice if Ford would have used an aluminum block and did a bit
>> more with the IRS. Then the Cobra would have been equal handling
>> with the Vette and faster too. What would you bitch about then?
>>
>>>> The Cobra also handles better
>>>> than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would
>>>> have no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>>>> transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight
>>>> distribution.
>>>
>>> Again, maybe on a good day with a good driver (and a bad driver in
>>> the Corvette). Generally speaking, the Corvette will beat the
>>> Cobra.
>>
>> On a loose track the Cobra could make up for any loss in the corner
>> on the straight, remember it's putting almost 80 more horses to the
>> ground than a C5. On a tighter track where alot of weight is
>> transferd the C5 has the advantage and the Cobra's power will be
>> unable to make up the difference.
>>
>>>>> The new C6 Vette is even
>>>>> better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the
>>>>> strip and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but
>>>>> putting one up against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a
>>>>> big disappointment.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>>>> stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my
>>>> point about the base C5.
>>>
>>> Let's be real here. The C5 is at least as fast and certainly
>>> handles better than the Cobra. On a good day, the Cobra may beat
>>> the C5 in a straight line, but that's all.
>>>
>>>>> BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My
>>>>> guess is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling
>>>>> for under $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for
>>>>> stock.
>>>>
>>>> Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it
>>>> running with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors
>>>> are way off base (that it will out run and handle as well as a
>>>> base C6)?
>>>
>>> Rumors are just that. The fact is that where the Cobra was
>>> competitive in '04, it's far behind in '05. Look at the numbers
>>> for the Cobra and the C6 - no comparison.
>>
>> I'm not compairing the Cobra to the C6, my point was that the Cobra
>> puts down more power than the new C6. Of course the C6 is a better
>> performer than the Cobra, it's a revised platform from the C5. I'm
>> trying to compare same year vehicles here, the next Cobra (or what
>> ever it's called) will have the same performance as the C6.
>>
>>> As for the Z06 vs. GT, we'll just have to wait and see.
>>>
>>>> The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>>>> question about that.
>>>
>>> There certainly is. BTW, the C5 isn't current - it's last year's
>>> model. We're in 2005.
>>
>> I know this, again I'm referencing same year models. The "current"
>> Cobra ('03 & '04) and the "current" Corvette ('03 & '04) why is this
>> so hard to understand?
>>
>>>> The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>>>> sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold
>>>> to the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it
>>>> so hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform
>>>> will not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle
>>>> close to if not as well as it does?
>>>
>>> Because nobody knows when the "new Cobra" will be built, or even if
>>> it will be built. It's all conjecture at this point.
>>
>> It's already been in the press that the new Cobra will be at the New
>> York Auto Show in March. Get with the program here...
>>
>>>> I know the new platform will still have
>>>> some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to handling as
>>>> other factors that have been corrected from the old chassis. I
>>>> can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the
>>>> Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to
>>>> the curb. Makes no sense...
>>>
>>> Nobody's kicking the Mustang to the curb. It's a great car for the
>>> price. The Corvette is simply better (i.e., you get what you pay
>>> for). Here are some facts:
>>>
>>> a) There's no Cobra in '05.
>>
>> So what... The cobra is not, and never has been an option nevery
>> year. It is a limited production automobile.
>>
>>> b) The C6 is an awesome car available now.
>>
>> Awesome to some, I personally don't like it and wouldn't own one.
>>
>>> c) The Z06 will be an even more awesome car available later this
>>> year.
>>
>> Awesom like the Viper which is another ugly car I'd never own.
>>
>>> d) Nobody knows what the "new Cobra" will really be.
>>
>> The rumors are out there and most have it a 5.4L Whipple Twin-Screw
>> aluminum block (maybe the GT block) with 3 valve heads, 6 speed, and
>> IRS. The rumors also point toward an automatic option (maybe a
>> sequential manual) and live axle option. The C6 Z06 was also only
>> rumors months ago, "so what" the Cobra info is only rumors.
>>
>>> e) Nobody knows when the "new Cobra" will be built.
>>
>> Somebody does, they just aint tellin'. We'll see what is shown two
>> months from now in New York.
>
> Mike, let's just agree to disagree. Everything I've seen indicates
> that the '04 Cobra won't do any real damage to an '04 C5. As for the
> C6, there's no contest.

From this site
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html

Year Make & Model (0-60) (1/4 Mile)

2003 Ford Mustang Cobra SVT 4.5 12.9
2004 Ford Mustang Cobra SVT 4.5 12.9

2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.6 13.0
2001 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.1
2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.1 12.5

From another site
http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/...tcorvette.html

2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra 4.5 12.9 @111
2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra 4.5 12.6 @112

2003 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.6 @ 107
2004 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.6 @ 107
2004 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.0 12.5 @ 115
2005 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.3 12.7 @ 112

This site also shows the 2004 Cobra with a .90 skidpad
the 2004 Corvette with a .91 skidpad
and the 2005 Corvette with a .95 skidpad

I know there are more factors where handling is concerned, but like I said,
on a loose course the Cobra will be able to hold it's own with a Corvette.
It's the tighter courses where the cars weight & balance play a larger role
where the Cobra's power will not make up for the Vette's better handling.
Also note that both sites show the Cobra quicker in the quarter than the C5,
equal to the C6, and just behind the C5 Z06. This is what I've been saying,
and now it's right here in print from 2 other sources.

> By your own admission, all the hype about the new Cobra is rumor.
> When has Ford said the new Cobra that'll supposedly appear in NY will
> go on sale to the general public? When we hear the answer to that,
> I'll pay serious attention. Until that, it's just another concept
> car.

Six months ago the C6 Z06 was nothing but a rumor. Again, automotive rumors
usually have some basis of fact. The C6 Z06 was a rumor, now it's a final
product that will be in showrooms soon. The next Cobra is a rumor that will
be a final product in the near future and be in showrooms in the not so near
future.

We can agree to disagree, but what I've said about the current Cobra's
performance is based on fact. There's also alot of information floating
around about the next Cobra, and it's not my problem if you choose to ignore
it becuse you like to complain about Ford.
--
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
---

ZombyWoof wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:53:18 -0500, "WraithCobra" >
> wrote something wonderfully witty:
>
>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>>>> have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year.
>>>>>>>> The Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground
>>>>>>>> than the same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4
>>>>>>> seconds off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster than
>>>>>> the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>>>> The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>>>> show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>>>> C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>>>> will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>>>> does)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>>>> the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are
>>>>>>> facts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory numbers
>>>>>> are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back. The only
>>>>>> thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The Terminator
>>>>>> puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven)
>>>>>> and is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>>>> Here's some facts for you......
>>>>>> http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>>>> not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>>>> different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>>>> different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette guys
>>>>>>>> think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think so... ---
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>> Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the
>>>>>> '03 & '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as
>>>>>> well for thousands less.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>>>> beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends.
>>>>> A C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>>>> the Z06 is only a half second faster. The Cobra also handles better
>>>> than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would have
>>>> no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>>>> transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight
>>>> distribution.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say the Cobra, stock vs. stock, would easily outrun a C5
>>> in the 1/4 mile. The Vette has better traction and a weight
>>> advantage thats good for the equivalent of 40-50 hp. Where the
>>> Cobra shines is when the engine are done but this is the case with
>>> most forced induction engines.
>>
>> Look it up, the '03 & '04 Cobras run faster 1/4 times than
>> compareable year Corvettes.
>>
>>>>> The new C6 Vette is even
>>>>> better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the
>>>>> strip and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but
>>>>> putting one up against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a
>>>>> big disappointment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>>>> stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my
>>>> point about the base C5.
>>>
>>> Aside from the engine changes the C6 isn't that far off from a C5 in
>>> handling. In fact, the C6 isn't a new chassis but a tweaked version
>>> of the C5. While power to the ground is important that is just one
>>> component that makes for a good all around performance car.
>>
>> This is kinda what I'm trying to explain. The Cobra is a good all
>> around performance car. The Vette handles better, the Cobra's
>> faster. the Vette has better aero, the Cobra has back seats and a
>> trunk. Different cars but a similar performance level considering
>> the differences in the functionality of the two.
>>
>>>>> BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My
>>>>> guess is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling
>>>>> for under $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for stock.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it running
>>>> with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors are way
>>>> off base (that it will out run and handle as well as a base C6)?
>>>
>>> I don't know what the new Cobra will be but I suspect it will have
>>> the same drive train as the '03-'04 cars. IMO, that is one of the
>>> best, if not the best, engine ever put in a mass produced
>>> automobile. Why mess with success? I think Ford will probably
>>> tweak it to make a little more than 400 hp.
>>
>> It already does make more than 400, dyno results on stock Cobras put
>> the output at closer to 425. The next Cobra will most likely use an
>> aluminum block 5.4L Twin-Screw with 450 - 550 rated horsepower
>> similar to the GT engine. It may or may not be the same block used
>> in the GT. It has been rumored that the Lightning and Cobra were to
>> use the same engine before the Lightning was put on the back burner.
>> Ford used the iron 4.6L block in the current Cobra for warrantee and
>> longevity reasons. A 5.4L would be able to make more power with less
>> stress on the block, the Twin-Screw also helps in this respect so a
>> lighter aluminum block can be used.
>>
>>>> The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>>>> question about that. The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>>>> sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold
>>>> to the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it
>>>> so hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform
>>>> will not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle
>>>> close to if not as well as it does? I know the new platform will
>>>> still have some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to
>>>> handling as other factors that have been corrected from the old
>>>> chassis.
>>>
>>> The problem the Mustang has when put up against the Vette is a
>>> result of the intended use of each car. The Mustang is meant to be
>>> a daily driver that is affordable. This results in driving
>>> positions, car's center of gravity location etc. that is not
>>> optimized for all out performance. The chassis is a derivative of a
>>> four door sedan which has compromises from the standpoint of
>>> performance. This isn't a bad thing. It's just what Ford had to
>>> do to keep it affordable and functional for its intended buyers.
>>> While the chassis is light years ahead of the old Fox platform it
>>> still has compromises that affect the car's performance. I think
>>> Ford has hit a home run with the new Stang but this doesn't mean it
>>> is a competitor for the Vette.
>>
>> I think a Cobra on the new platform will at least have the same small
>> performance gap that the current Cobra has with the Vette now. The
>> new Mustang platform is, don't quote me here, 32% more ridgid than
>> the Fox4 chasis.
>>
>>> Now the Vette is a completely different story. It was designed from
>>> the ground up to be a two seater sports car. No major compromises
>>> were necessary during its design. This means independent rear
>>> suspensions that aren't an after thought retrofit, lower center of
>>> mass, trannies located behind the driver to optimize weight
>>> distribution, front suspension that doesn't compromise for engine
>>> size (like in the new Mustang) and many, many other items that
>>> enhance performance. All these things add up to a car that is quite
>>> a capable performer even for the price of $50k. Hell, you can't buy
>>> a loaded pickup truck for much less than that and many SUV's cost
>>> more!
>>
>> There are other automobiles that will out handle the Vette for alot
>> less, now these will not have the power of a V8 but the Vette isn't
>> the best handler out there for the money either.
>>
>>>> I can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the
>>>> Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to the
>>>> curb. Makes no sense...
>>>
>>> I'm not kicking the Mustang to the curb. I have one sitting in my
>>> garage that I'll keep until I'm taking a dirt nap. That being
>>> said, I also won't take a position of making the Mustang out to be
>>> more than what it is - a very good pony car at a very good price
>>> that can be a daily driver, if necessary. IMO, the new Mustang
>>> fills this role almost to perfection but that's about as far as I
>>> will go until I see what Ford does with the Cobra version. I do
>>> know that they can only do so much with the car (i.e chassis)
>>> because of it's basic design function.
>>
>> I'm not making it more than it is either, I'm stating facts. The
>> Cobra is faster and more powerful than the Vette. (comparing same
>> years here) The Vette may handle better, but not by a wide enough
>> margin in some cases to beat a Cobra. (I said some cases) The Vette
>> is a two seat sports car where the Cobra has back seats and a usable
>> trunk, which I prefer to have. And if I owned a Vette I'd at least
>> know who my comptition was, or soon find out.
>>
> I own a Vette, not even a current generation one either. My
> competition isn't a Cobra. Never has been, never will be. While I
> don't have backseats that only a child can fit in (who needs em)? I
> bet I have more cubic storage space in my Vette then your Cobra. But
> that isn't the point either. It ain't for getting groceries. I have
> a nice little `01 Mustang drop-top that I can do that in.
>
> So you like your car? Most do, but you should not be making claims
> that just don't stand up.

Quoted from my other post:

From this site
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html

Year Make & Model (0-60) (1/4 Mile)

2003 Ford Mustang Cobra SVT 4.5 12.9
2004 Ford Mustang Cobra SVT 4.5 12.9

2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.6 13.0
2001 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.1
2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.1 12.5

From another site
http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/...tcorvette.html

2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra 4.5 12.9 @111
2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra 4.5 12.6 @112

2003 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.6 @ 107
2004 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.6 @ 107
2004 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.0 12.5 @ 115
2005 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.3 12.7 @ 112

This site also shows the 2004 Cobra with a .90 skidpad
the 2004 Corvette with a .91 skidpad
and the 2005 Corvette with a .95 skidpad

I know there are more factors where handling is concerned, but like I said,
on a loose course the Cobra will be able to hold it's own with a Corvette.
It's the tighter courses where the cars weight & balance play a larger role
where the Cobra's power will not make up for the Vette's better handling.
Also note that both sites show the Cobra quicker in the quarter than the C5,
equal to the C6, and just behind the C5 Z06. This is what I've been saying,
and now it's right here in print from 2 other sources.

Facts are facts, the Cobra is faster and has near Corvette handling. Just
becuse you can't fathom a "Mustang" being in the same performance league as
the "All Mighty Corvette" doesn't mean it isn't true. Get over it...
--
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
---

Joe wrote:
> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Joe wrote:
>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>>>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster
>>>>>>>>>> and have near Corvette handling when compared with the same
>>>>>>>>>> year. The Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the
>>>>>>>>>> ground than the same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4
>>>>>>>>> seconds off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster
>>>>>>>> than the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>>>>>> The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the
>>>>>>>> ground show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and
>>>>>>>> cat-back. The C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>>>>>> will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>>>>>> does)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor.
>>>>>>>>> And the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those
>>>>>>>>> are facts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory
>>>>>>>> numbers are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and
>>>>>>>> cat-back. The only thing holding the Cobra back is weight,
>>>>>>>> 3650 lbs. The Terminator puts down over 15 more RWHP stock
>>>>>>>> than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven) and is only a few 10ths behind
>>>>>>>> in the 1/4. Here's some facts for you......
>>>>>>>> http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and will handle just as well on the new platform for less.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in
>>>>>>>>>> a different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>>>>>> different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette
>>>>>>>>>> guys think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think
>>>>>>>>>> so...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the
>>>>>>>> '03 & '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost
>>>>>>>> as well for thousands less.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some
>>>>>>> instances beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is
>>>>>>> where it ends. A C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road
>>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the
>>>>>> 1/4, the Z06 is only a half second faster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Easily? No way. Maybe on a good day with a good driver, but you
>>>>> get what you pay for. A C5 is simply a better overall car.
>>>>
>>>> NO, a stock supercharged Cobra will out 1/4 a stock C5 Vette any
>>>> day of the week. You don't need a good day or a good driver to do
>>>> that. Now the Cobra will need a CAI, cat-back, a good driver, and
>>>> a bit o'luck to do the same to a C5 Z06. You need to get out of
>>>> the Magazines and into the real world. The C5 is a better car for
>>>> who, not me. It's interior is worse than any Mustang, although the
>>>> Cobra has a compromised IRS the Vette IRS is an old school piece
>>>> and isn't much better. The engine is strong but a few cubes will
>>>> do that, I'd rather have more power per cube. I also like my back
>>>> seats and trunk space so the Corvette is not a better car than my
>>>> Cobra to me. If I'd wanted a Corvette I would have bought a
>>>> Corvette. It would have been nice if Ford would have used an
>>>> aluminum block and did a bit more with the IRS. Then the Cobra
>>>> would have been equal handling with the Vette and faster too. What
>>>> would you bitch about then?
>>>>
>>>>>> The Cobra also handles better
>>>>>> than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would
>>>>>> have no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>>>>>> transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight
>>>>>> distribution.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, maybe on a good day with a good driver (and a bad driver
>>>>> in the Corvette). Generally speaking, the Corvette will beat the
>>>>> Cobra.
>>>>
>>>> On a loose track the Cobra could make up for any loss in the
>>>> corner on the straight, remember it's putting almost 80 more
>>>> horses to the ground than a C5. On a tighter track where alot of
>>>> weight is transferd the C5 has the advantage and the Cobra's power
>>>> will be unable to make up the difference.
>>>>
>>>>>>> The new C6 Vette is even
>>>>>>> better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the
>>>>>>> strip and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but
>>>>>>> putting one up against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to
>>>>>>> a big disappointment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>>>>>> stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my
>>>>>> point about the base C5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's be real here. The C5 is at least as fast and certainly
>>>>> handles better than the Cobra. On a good day, the Cobra may beat
>>>>> the C5 in a straight line, but that's all.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My
>>>>>>> guess is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling
>>>>>>> for under $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for
>>>>>>> stock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it
>>>>>> running with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors
>>>>>> are way off base (that it will out run and handle as well as a
>>>>>> base C6)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rumors are just that. The fact is that where the Cobra was
>>>>> competitive in '04, it's far behind in '05. Look at the numbers
>>>>> for the Cobra and the C6 - no comparison.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not compairing the Cobra to the C6, my point was that the
>>>> Cobra puts down more power than the new C6. Of course the C6 is a
>>>> better performer than the Cobra, it's a revised platform from the
>>>> C5. I'm trying to compare same year vehicles here, the next Cobra
>>>> (or what ever it's called) will have the same performance as the
>>>> C6.
>>>>
>>>>> As for the Z06 vs. GT, we'll just have to wait and see.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>>>>>> question about that.
>>>>>
>>>>> There certainly is. BTW, the C5 isn't current - it's last year's
>>>>> model. We're in 2005.
>>>>
>>>> I know this, again I'm referencing same year models. The "current"
>>>> Cobra ('03 & '04) and the "current" Corvette ('03 & '04) why is
>>>> this so hard to understand?
>>>>
>>>>>> The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>>>>>> sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever
>>>>>> sold to the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why
>>>>>> is it so hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new
>>>>>> platform will not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette
>>>>>> and handle close to if not as well as it does?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because nobody knows when the "new Cobra" will be built, or even
>>>>> if it will be built. It's all conjecture at this point.
>>>>
>>>> It's already been in the press that the new Cobra will be at the
>>>> New York Auto Show in March. Get with the program here...
>>>>
>>>>>> I know the new platform will still have
>>>>>> some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to handling
>>>>>> as other factors that have been corrected from the old chassis.
>>>>>> I can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put
>>>>>> the Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang
>>>>>> to the curb. Makes no sense...
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody's kicking the Mustang to the curb. It's a great car for
>>>>> the price. The Corvette is simply better (i.e., you get what you
>>>>> pay for). Here are some facts:
>>>>>
>>>>> a) There's no Cobra in '05.
>>>>
>>>> So what... The cobra is not, and never has been an option nevery
>>>> year. It is a limited production automobile.
>>>>
>>>>> b) The C6 is an awesome car available now.
>>>>
>>>> Awesome to some, I personally don't like it and wouldn't own one.
>>>>
>>>>> c) The Z06 will be an even more awesome car available later this
>>>>> year.
>>>>
>>>> Awesom like the Viper which is another ugly car I'd never own.
>>>>
>>>>> d) Nobody knows what the "new Cobra" will really be.
>>>>
>>>> The rumors are out there and most have it a 5.4L Whipple
>>>> Twin-Screw aluminum block (maybe the GT block) with 3 valve heads,
>>>> 6 speed, and IRS. The rumors also point toward an automatic option
>>>> (maybe a sequential manual) and live axle option. The C6 Z06 was
>>>> also only rumors months ago, "so what" the Cobra info is only
>>>> rumors.
>>>>
>>>>> e) Nobody knows when the "new Cobra" will be built.
>>>>
>>>> Somebody does, they just aint tellin'. We'll see what is shown two
>>>> months from now in New York.
>>>
>>> Mike, let's just agree to disagree. Everything I've seen indicates
>>> that the '04 Cobra won't do any real damage to an '04 C5. As for
>>> the C6, there's no contest.
>>
>> From this site
>> http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html
>>
>> Year Make & Model (0-60) (1/4 Mile)
>>
>> 2003 Ford Mustang Cobra SVT 4.5 12.9
>> 2004 Ford Mustang Cobra SVT 4.5 12.9
>>
>> 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.6 13.0
>> 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.1
>> 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.1 12.5
>>
>> From another site
>> http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/...tcorvette.html
>>
>> 2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra 4.5 12.9 @111
>> 2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra 4.5 12.6 @112
>>
>> 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.6 @ 107
>> 2004 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.8 13.6 @ 107
>> 2004 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4.0 12.5 @ 115
>> 2005 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 4.3 12.7 @ 112
>>
>> This site also shows the 2004 Cobra with a .90 skidpad
>> the 2004 Corvette with a .91 skidpad
>> and the 2005 Corvette with a .95 skidpad
>>
>> I know there are more factors where handling is concerned, but like
>> I said, on a loose course the Cobra will be able to hold it's own
>> with a Corvette. It's the tighter courses where the cars weight &
>> balance play a larger role where the Cobra's power will not make up
>> for the Vette's better handling. Also note that both sites show the
>> Cobra quicker in the quarter than the C5, equal to the C6, and just
>> behind the C5 Z06. This is what I've been saying, and now it's right
>> here in print from 2 other sources.
>
> You're the one who advised that I stop magazine racing; now I can tell
> you to stop Internet racing. Like I said, I've seen more C5s beat up
> on Cobras than the other way around.
>
>>> By your own admission, all the hype about the new Cobra is rumor.
>>> When has Ford said the new Cobra that'll supposedly appear in NY
>>> will go on sale to the general public? When we hear the answer to
>>> that, I'll pay serious attention. Until that, it's just another
>>> concept car.
>>
>> Six months ago the C6 Z06 was nothing but a rumor. Again, automotive
>> rumors usually have some basis of fact. The C6 Z06 was a rumor, now
>> it's a final product that will be in showrooms soon. The next Cobra
>> is a rumor that will be a final product in the near future and be in
>> showrooms in the not so near future.
>
> Pure conjecture on your part. It's all wishful dreaming, anyway. The
> Z06 is real, the "new Cobra" is not.
>
>> We can agree to disagree, but what I've said about the current
>> Cobra's performance is based on fact.
>
> Debatable at best.
>
>> There's also alot of
>> information floating around about the next Cobra, and it's not my
>> problem if you choose to ignore it becuse you like to complain about
>> Ford.
>
> Mike, I'm not complaining about a thing. You're the one who's getting
> all bent out of shape. At least I can see these cars for what they
> really are (and aren't) in the real world.

Well, I know what the Cobra can and can't do in the real world. I've stated
the facts and backed up those statements with data. You just go on believing
the Corvette is faster and handles so much better than the Cobra and live
happily ever after. I know the truth, and I'm done trying to make you see
it. You can lead a guy to an affordable sports car, but you can't make him
believe.
--
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
---

WraithCobra wrote:
> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>
>>>Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Joe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"WraithCobra" > wrote in
:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>>>have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year. The
>>>>>>>Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground than the
>>>>>>>same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4 seconds
>>>>>>off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster than
>>>>>the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>>>The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>>>show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>>>C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>>>will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>>>does)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>>>the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are facts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory numbers
>>>>>are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back. The only
>>>>>thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The Terminator
>>>>>puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven) and
>>>>>is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>>>Here's some facts for you......
>>>>>http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>>>not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>>>different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>>>different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette guys
>>>>>>>think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think so... ---
>>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>>Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the '03 &
>>>>>'04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as well for
>>>>>thousands less.
>>>>
>>>>I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>>>beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends. A
>>>>C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>>
>>>
>>>A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>>>the Z06 is only a half second faster. The Cobra also handles better
>>>than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would have
>>>no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>>>transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight distribution.
>>
>>I wouldn't say the Cobra, stock vs. stock, would easily outrun a C5 in
>>the 1/4 mile. The Vette has better traction and a weight advantage
>>thats good for the equivalent of 40-50 hp. Where the Cobra shines is
>>when the engine are done but this is the case with most forced
>>induction engines.
>
>
> Look it up, the '03 & '04 Cobras run faster 1/4 times than compareable year
> Corvettes.
>
>
>>>>The new C6 Vette is even
>>>>better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the strip
>>>>and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but putting one up
>>>>against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a big
>>>>disappointment.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>>>stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my point
>>>about the base C5.
>>
>>Aside from the engine changes the C6 isn't that far off from a C5 in
>>handling. In fact, the C6 isn't a new chassis but a tweaked version
>>of the C5. While power to the ground is important that is just one
>>component that makes for a good all around performance car.
>
>
> This is kinda what I'm trying to explain. The Cobra is a good all around
> performance car. The Vette handles better, the Cobra's faster. the Vette has
> better aero, the Cobra has back seats and a trunk. Different cars but a
> similar performance level considering the differences in the functionality
> of the two.
>
>
>>>>BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My guess
>>>>is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling for under
>>>>$100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for stock.
>>>
>>>
>>>Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it running
>>>with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors are way off
>>>base (that it will out run and handle as well as a base C6)?
>>
>>I don't know what the new Cobra will be but I suspect it will have the
>>same drive train as the '03-'04 cars. IMO, that is one of the best,
>>if not the best, engine ever put in a mass produced automobile. Why
>>mess with success? I think Ford will probably tweak it to make a
>>little more than 400 hp.
>
>
> It already does make more than 400, dyno results on stock Cobras put the
> output at closer to 425. The next Cobra will most likely use an aluminum
> block 5.4L Twin-Screw with 450 - 550 rated horsepower similar to the GT
> engine. It may or may not be the same block used in the GT. It has been
> rumored that the Lightning and Cobra were to use the same engine before the
> Lightning was put on the back burner. Ford used the iron 4.6L block in the
> current Cobra for warrantee and longevity reasons. A 5.4L would be able to
> make more power with less stress on the block, the Twin-Screw also helps in
> this respect so a lighter aluminum block can be used.
>
>
>>>The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>>>question about that. The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>>>sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold to
>>>the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it so
>>>hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform will
>>>not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle close to
>>>if not as well as it does? I know the new platform will still have
>>>some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to handling as
>>>other factors that have been corrected from the old chassis.
>>
>>The problem the Mustang has when put up against the Vette is a result
>>of the intended use of each car. The Mustang is meant to be a daily
>>driver that is affordable. This results in driving positions, car's
>>center of gravity location etc. that is not optimized for all out
>>performance. The chassis is a derivative of a four door sedan which
>>has compromises from the standpoint of performance. This isn't a bad
>>thing. It's just what Ford had to do to keep it affordable and
>>functional for its intended buyers. While the chassis is light years
>>ahead of the old Fox platform it still has compromises that affect
>>the car's performance. I think Ford has hit a home run with the new
>>Stang but this doesn't mean it is a competitor for the Vette.
>
>
> I think a Cobra on the new platform will at least have the same small
> performance gap that the current Cobra has with the Vette now. The new
> Mustang platform is, don't quote me here, 32% more ridgid than the Fox4
> chasis.
>
> > Now the Vette is a completely different story. It was designed from
>
>>the ground up to be a two seater sports car. No major compromises
>>were necessary during its design. This means independent rear
>>suspensions that aren't an after thought retrofit, lower center of
>>mass, trannies located behind the driver to optimize weight
>>distribution, front suspension that doesn't compromise for engine
>>size (like in the new Mustang) and many, many other items that
>>enhance performance. All these things add up to a car that is quite
>>a capable performer even for the price of $50k. Hell, you can't buy
>>a loaded pickup truck for much less than that and many SUV's cost
>>more!
>
>
> There are other automobiles that will out handle the Vette for alot less,
> now these will not have the power of a V8 but the Vette isn't the best
> handler out there for the money either.
>
>
>>>I can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the
>>>Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to the
>>>curb. Makes no sense...
>>
>>I'm not kicking the Mustang to the curb. I have one sitting in my
>>garage that I'll keep until I'm taking a dirt nap. That being said, I
>>also won't take a position of making the Mustang out to be more than
>>what it is - a very good pony car at a very good price that can be a
>>daily driver, if necessary. IMO, the new Mustang fills this role
>>almost to perfection but that's about as far as I will go until I see
>>what Ford does with the Cobra version. I do know that they can only
>>do so much with the car (i.e chassis) because of it's basic design
>>function.
>
>
> I'm not making it more than it is either, I'm stating facts. The Cobra is
> faster and more powerful than the Vette. (comparing same years here) The
> Vette may handle better, but not by a wide enough margin in some cases to
> beat a Cobra. (I said some cases) The Vette is a two seat sports car where
> the Cobra has back seats and a usable trunk, which I prefer to have. And if
> I owned a Vette I'd at least know who my comptition was, or soon find out.

Go to a road course and race against a C5 Vette with a competent driver
and then get back to me. Just the advantage in braking alone will give
the Vette a tremendous advantage over a Cobra. The Vette is just plain
easier to drive fast which will make it faster than a Cobra, especially
with an amateur drivers. At the strip you might have a slight advantage
but it ends there. I'm not looking to start an agreement... just giving
a reality check.

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
> WraithCobra wrote:
>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>
>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "WraithCobra" > wrote in
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>>>> have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year.
>>>>>>>> The Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground
>>>>>>>> than the same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4
>>>>>>> seconds off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster than
>>>>>> the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>>>> The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>>>> show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>>>> C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>>>> will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>>>> does)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>>>> the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are
>>>>>>> facts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory numbers
>>>>>> are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back. The only
>>>>>> thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The Terminator
>>>>>> puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven)
>>>>>> and is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>>>> Here's some facts for you......
>>>>>> http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>>>> not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>>>> different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>>>> different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette guys
>>>>>>>> think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think so... ---
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>> Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the
>>>>>> '03 & '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as
>>>>>> well for thousands less.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>>>> beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends.
>>>>> A C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>>>> the Z06 is only a half second faster. The Cobra also handles better
>>>> than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would have
>>>> no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>>>> transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight
>>>> distribution.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say the Cobra, stock vs. stock, would easily outrun a C5
>>> in the 1/4 mile. The Vette has better traction and a weight
>>> advantage thats good for the equivalent of 40-50 hp. Where the
>>> Cobra shines is when the engine are done but this is the case with
>>> most forced induction engines.
>>
>>
>> Look it up, the '03 & '04 Cobras run faster 1/4 times than
>> compareable year Corvettes.
>>
>>
>>>>> The new C6 Vette is even
>>>>> better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the
>>>>> strip and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but
>>>>> putting one up against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a
>>>>> big disappointment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>>>> stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my
>>>> point about the base C5.
>>>
>>> Aside from the engine changes the C6 isn't that far off from a C5 in
>>> handling. In fact, the C6 isn't a new chassis but a tweaked version
>>> of the C5. While power to the ground is important that is just one
>>> component that makes for a good all around performance car.
>>
>>
>> This is kinda what I'm trying to explain. The Cobra is a good all
>> around performance car. The Vette handles better, the Cobra's
>> faster. the Vette has better aero, the Cobra has back seats and a
>> trunk. Different cars but a similar performance level considering
>> the differences in the functionality of the two.
>>
>>
>>>>> BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My
>>>>> guess is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling
>>>>> for under $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for stock.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it running
>>>> with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors are way
>>>> off base (that it will out run and handle as well as a base C6)?
>>>
>>> I don't know what the new Cobra will be but I suspect it will have
>>> the same drive train as the '03-'04 cars. IMO, that is one of the
>>> best, if not the best, engine ever put in a mass produced
>>> automobile. Why mess with success? I think Ford will probably
>>> tweak it to make a little more than 400 hp.
>>
>>
>> It already does make more than 400, dyno results on stock Cobras put
>> the output at closer to 425. The next Cobra will most likely use an
>> aluminum block 5.4L Twin-Screw with 450 - 550 rated horsepower
>> similar to the GT engine. It may or may not be the same block used
>> in the GT. It has been rumored that the Lightning and Cobra were to
>> use the same engine before the Lightning was put on the back burner.
>> Ford used the iron 4.6L block in the current Cobra for warrantee and
>> longevity reasons. A 5.4L would be able to make more power with less
>> stress on the block, the Twin-Screw also helps in this respect so a
>> lighter aluminum block can be used.
>>
>>
>>>> The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>>>> question about that. The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>>>> sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold
>>>> to the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it
>>>> so hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform
>>>> will not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle
>>>> close to if not as well as it does? I know the new platform will
>>>> still have some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to
>>>> handling as other factors that have been corrected from the old
>>>> chassis.
>>>
>>> The problem the Mustang has when put up against the Vette is a
>>> result of the intended use of each car. The Mustang is meant to be
>>> a daily driver that is affordable. This results in driving
>>> positions, car's center of gravity location etc. that is not
>>> optimized for all out performance. The chassis is a derivative of a
>>> four door sedan which has compromises from the standpoint of
>>> performance. This isn't a bad thing. It's just what Ford had to
>>> do to keep it affordable and functional for its intended buyers.
>>> While the chassis is light years ahead of the old Fox platform it
>>> still has compromises that affect the car's performance. I think
>>> Ford has hit a home run with the new Stang but this doesn't mean it
>>> is a competitor for the Vette.
>>
>>
>> I think a Cobra on the new platform will at least have the same small
>> performance gap that the current Cobra has with the Vette now. The
>> new Mustang platform is, don't quote me here, 32% more ridgid than
>> the Fox4 chasis.
>>
>> > Now the Vette is a completely different story. It was designed
>> from
>>
>>> the ground up to be a two seater sports car. No major compromises
>>> were necessary during its design. This means independent rear
>>> suspensions that aren't an after thought retrofit, lower center of
>>> mass, trannies located behind the driver to optimize weight
>>> distribution, front suspension that doesn't compromise for engine
>>> size (like in the new Mustang) and many, many other items that
>>> enhance performance. All these things add up to a car that is quite
>>> a capable performer even for the price of $50k. Hell, you can't buy
>>> a loaded pickup truck for much less than that and many SUV's cost
>>> more!
>>
>>
>> There are other automobiles that will out handle the Vette for alot
>> less, now these will not have the power of a V8 but the Vette isn't
>> the best handler out there for the money either.
>>
>>
>>>> I can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the
>>>> Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to the
>>>> curb. Makes no sense...
>>>
>>> I'm not kicking the Mustang to the curb. I have one sitting in my
>>> garage that I'll keep until I'm taking a dirt nap. That being
>>> said, I also won't take a position of making the Mustang out to be
>>> more than what it is - a very good pony car at a very good price
>>> that can be a daily driver, if necessary. IMO, the new Mustang
>>> fills this role almost to perfection but that's about as far as I
>>> will go until I see what Ford does with the Cobra version. I do
>>> know that they can only do so much with the car (i.e chassis)
>>> because of it's basic design function.
>>
>>
>> I'm not making it more than it is either, I'm stating facts. The
>> Cobra is faster and more powerful than the Vette. (comparing same
>> years here) The Vette may handle better, but not by a wide enough
>> margin in some cases to beat a Cobra. (I said some cases) The Vette
>> is a two seat sports car where the Cobra has back seats and a usable
>> trunk, which I prefer to have. And if I owned a Vette I'd at least
>> know who my comptition was, or soon find out.
>
> Go to a road course and race against a C5 Vette with a competent
> driver and then get back to me. Just the advantage in braking alone
> will give the Vette a tremendous advantage over a Cobra. The Vette
> is just plain easier to drive fast which will make it faster than a
> Cobra, especially with an amateur drivers. At the strip you might
> have a slight advantage but it ends there. I'm not looking to start
> an agreement... just giving a reality check.

There are a few guys over on svtperformance that roadrace Cobras and don't
have much of a problem. I never said that the Vette wasn't a better handler,
I'm sick of hearing how bad the Cobra handles compared to it. It's not as
bad as people tend to think. A great driver in a Cobra could easily out
drive a good driver in a Vette. For the $$ the Cobra is a good handler and
(damn I hate using this arguement) with the price difference could modify to
similar handling levels. But were talking stock for stock here and the Cobra
can hold it's own for what it is.
--
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
---

WraithCobra wrote:
> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>
>>>Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"WraithCobra" > wrote in
:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>>>>>have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year.
>>>>>>>>>The Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground
>>>>>>>>>than the same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4
>>>>>>>>seconds off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster than
>>>>>>>the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>>>>>The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>>>>>show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>>>>>C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>>>>>will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>>>>>does)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>>>>>the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are
>>>>>>>>facts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory numbers
>>>>>>>are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back. The only
>>>>>>>thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The Terminator
>>>>>>>puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven)
>>>>>>>and is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>>>>>Here's some facts for you......
>>>>>>>http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>>>>>not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>>>>>different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>>>>>different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette guys
>>>>>>>>>think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think so... ---
>>>>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>>>>Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the
>>>>>>>'03 & '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as
>>>>>>>well for thousands less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>>>>>beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends.
>>>>>>A C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>>>>>the Z06 is only a half second faster. The Cobra also handles better
>>>>>than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would have
>>>>>no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>>>>>transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight
>>>>>distribution.
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't say the Cobra, stock vs. stock, would easily outrun a C5
>>>>in the 1/4 mile. The Vette has better traction and a weight
>>>>advantage thats good for the equivalent of 40-50 hp. Where the
>>>>Cobra shines is when the engine are done but this is the case with
>>>>most forced induction engines.
>>>
>>>
>>>Look it up, the '03 & '04 Cobras run faster 1/4 times than
>>>compareable year Corvettes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>The new C6 Vette is even
>>>>>>better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the
>>>>>>strip and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but
>>>>>>putting one up against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a
>>>>>>big disappointment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>>>>>stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my
>>>>>point about the base C5.
>>>>
>>>>Aside from the engine changes the C6 isn't that far off from a C5 in
>>>>handling. In fact, the C6 isn't a new chassis but a tweaked version
>>>>of the C5. While power to the ground is important that is just one
>>>>component that makes for a good all around performance car.
>>>
>>>
>>>This is kinda what I'm trying to explain. The Cobra is a good all
>>>around performance car. The Vette handles better, the Cobra's
>>>faster. the Vette has better aero, the Cobra has back seats and a
>>>trunk. Different cars but a similar performance level considering
>>>the differences in the functionality of the two.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My
>>>>>>guess is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling
>>>>>>for under $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for stock.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it running
>>>>>with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors are way
>>>>>off base (that it will out run and handle as well as a base C6)?
>>>>
>>>>I don't know what the new Cobra will be but I suspect it will have
>>>>the same drive train as the '03-'04 cars. IMO, that is one of the
>>>>best, if not the best, engine ever put in a mass produced
>>>>automobile. Why mess with success? I think Ford will probably
>>>>tweak it to make a little more than 400 hp.
>>>
>>>
>>>It already does make more than 400, dyno results on stock Cobras put
>>>the output at closer to 425. The next Cobra will most likely use an
>>>aluminum block 5.4L Twin-Screw with 450 - 550 rated horsepower
>>>similar to the GT engine. It may or may not be the same block used
>>>in the GT. It has been rumored that the Lightning and Cobra were to
>>>use the same engine before the Lightning was put on the back burner.
>>>Ford used the iron 4.6L block in the current Cobra for warrantee and
>>>longevity reasons. A 5.4L would be able to make more power with less
>>>stress on the block, the Twin-Screw also helps in this respect so a
>>>lighter aluminum block can be used.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>>>>>question about that. The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>>>>>sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold
>>>>>to the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it
>>>>>so hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform
>>>>>will not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle
>>>>>close to if not as well as it does? I know the new platform will
>>>>>still have some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to
>>>>>handling as other factors that have been corrected from the old
>>>>>chassis.
>>>>
>>>>The problem the Mustang has when put up against the Vette is a
>>>>result of the intended use of each car. The Mustang is meant to be
>>>>a daily driver that is affordable. This results in driving
>>>>positions, car's center of gravity location etc. that is not
>>>>optimized for all out performance. The chassis is a derivative of a
>>>>four door sedan which has compromises from the standpoint of
>>>>performance. This isn't a bad thing. It's just what Ford had to
>>>>do to keep it affordable and functional for its intended buyers.
>>>>While the chassis is light years ahead of the old Fox platform it
>>>>still has compromises that affect the car's performance. I think
>>>>Ford has hit a home run with the new Stang but this doesn't mean it
>>>>is a competitor for the Vette.
>>>
>>>
>>>I think a Cobra on the new platform will at least have the same small
>>>performance gap that the current Cobra has with the Vette now. The
>>>new Mustang platform is, don't quote me here, 32% more ridgid than
>>>the Fox4 chasis.
>>>
>>> > Now the Vette is a completely different story. It was designed
>>>from
>>>
>>>
>>>>the ground up to be a two seater sports car. No major compromises
>>>>were necessary during its design. This means independent rear
>>>>suspensions that aren't an after thought retrofit, lower center of
>>>>mass, trannies located behind the driver to optimize weight
>>>>distribution, front suspension that doesn't compromise for engine
>>>>size (like in the new Mustang) and many, many other items that
>>>>enhance performance. All these things add up to a car that is quite
>>>>a capable performer even for the price of $50k. Hell, you can't buy
>>>>a loaded pickup truck for much less than that and many SUV's cost
>>>>more!
>>>
>>>
>>>There are other automobiles that will out handle the Vette for alot
>>>less, now these will not have the power of a V8 but the Vette isn't
>>>the best handler out there for the money either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the
>>>>>Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to the
>>>>>curb. Makes no sense...
>>>>
>>>>I'm not kicking the Mustang to the curb. I have one sitting in my
>>>>garage that I'll keep until I'm taking a dirt nap. That being
>>>>said, I also won't take a position of making the Mustang out to be
>>>>more than what it is - a very good pony car at a very good price
>>>>that can be a daily driver, if necessary. IMO, the new Mustang
>>>>fills this role almost to perfection but that's about as far as I
>>>>will go until I see what Ford does with the Cobra version. I do
>>>>know that they can only do so much with the car (i.e chassis)
>>>>because of it's basic design function.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm not making it more than it is either, I'm stating facts. The
>>>Cobra is faster and more powerful than the Vette. (comparing same
>>>years here) The Vette may handle better, but not by a wide enough
>>>margin in some cases to beat a Cobra. (I said some cases) The Vette
>>>is a two seat sports car where the Cobra has back seats and a usable
>>>trunk, which I prefer to have. And if I owned a Vette I'd at least
>>>know who my comptition was, or soon find out.
>>
>>Go to a road course and race against a C5 Vette with a competent
>>driver and then get back to me. Just the advantage in braking alone
>>will give the Vette a tremendous advantage over a Cobra. The Vette
>>is just plain easier to drive fast which will make it faster than a
>>Cobra, especially with an amateur drivers. At the strip you might
>>have a slight advantage but it ends there. I'm not looking to start
>>an agreement... just giving a reality check.
>
>
> There are a few guys over on svtperformance that roadrace Cobras and don't
> have much of a problem. I never said that the Vette wasn't a better handler,
> I'm sick of hearing how bad the Cobra handles compared to it. It's not as
> bad as people tend to think. A great driver in a Cobra could easily out
> drive a good driver in a Vette. For the $$ the Cobra is a good handler and
> (damn I hate using this arguement) with the price difference could modify to
> similar handling levels. But were talking stock for stock here and the Cobra
> can hold it's own for what it is.

The discussion is regarding showroom stock cars. We are both saying the
same thing. I think the Cobra is one hell of a car for the money. It
just isn't in the same league as the C5 regarding handling and braking.
You can only squeeze so much performance from a 25 year old sedan
chassis. I think Ford got all they could with the Cobra but it falls
short of the Vette. The fact it gets as close as it does speaks well
for the SVT guys.

WraithCobra wrote:
> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>
>>>Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>WraithCobra wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"WraithCobra" > wrote in
:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Um... The '03 & '04 Terminator Cobra's are already faster and
>>>>>>>>>have near Corvette handling when compared with the same year.
>>>>>>>>>The Terminator Cobras are putting more power to the ground
>>>>>>>>>than the same year Z06's and the new C6.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Mike, you're dreaming. The Corvette does 0-60 in under 4
>>>>>>>>seconds off the showroom floor. What stock Cobra does that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Time slips have already proven that the Terminator is faster than
>>>>>>>the same year Vette (not Z06) in the 1/4.
>>>>>>>The Terminators put down an average of 365 horses to the ground
>>>>>>>show room stock, closer to 385 with only a CAI and cat-back. The
>>>>>>>C5 has a RWHP around 300, and the Z06 about 350.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The next Cobra, which will be produced,
>>>>>>>>>will have more power than the new C6 (the Terminator already
>>>>>>>>>does)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Flat out nonsense. The next Cobra is nothing but a rumor. And
>>>>>>>>the Terminator has 390/390 vs. the C6's 400/400. Those are
>>>>>>>>facts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The Terminator is under rated, that's a fact! The factory numbers
>>>>>>>are closer to 425/425, thats without a CAI and cat-back. The only
>>>>>>>thing holding the Cobra back is weight, 3650 lbs. The Terminator
>>>>>>>puts down over 15 more RWHP stock than the C5 Z06 (dyno proven)
>>>>>>>and is only a few 10ths behind in the 1/4.
>>>>>>>Here's some facts for you......
>>>>>>>http://dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=28
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>and will handle just as well on the new platform for less. I'm
>>>>>>>>>not comparing the next Cobra to the C6 Z06, they are in a
>>>>>>>>>different price range. And I do agree that they are two
>>>>>>>>>different cars for two different purposes. Heck, the Vette guys
>>>>>>>>>think the new Z06 will compare to the GT. Don't think so... ---
>>>>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>>>>Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe
>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Mike, you need to wake up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You need to stop Magazing racing becuse in the real world the
>>>>>>>'03 & '04 Cobras are faster than a C5 Vette and handle almost as
>>>>>>>well for thousands less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree that the '03-'04 Cobras can match, and in some instances
>>>>>>beat, the C5 Vettes at the drag strip but that is where it ends.
>>>>>>A C5 will tromp a Mustang Cobra on a road course.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A stock Cobra will easily out run a stock C5 Corvette in the 1/4,
>>>>>the Z06 is only a half second faster. The Cobra also handles better
>>>>>than most people think. On a loose road course the Cobra would have
>>>>>no problem keeping up with a C5, a tighter course with more
>>>>>transitions will slow the Cobra down due to its weight
>>>>>distribution.
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't say the Cobra, stock vs. stock, would easily outrun a C5
>>>>in the 1/4 mile. The Vette has better traction and a weight
>>>>advantage thats good for the equivalent of 40-50 hp. Where the
>>>>Cobra shines is when the engine are done but this is the case with
>>>>most forced induction engines.
>>>
>>>
>>>Look it up, the '03 & '04 Cobras run faster 1/4 times than
>>>compareable year Corvettes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>The new C6 Vette is even
>>>>>>better and stock for stock will likely match the Cobra at the
>>>>>>strip and would destroy it otherwise. I like Mustangs but
>>>>>>putting one up against a C5, and especially a C6, will lead to a
>>>>>>big disappointment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm not really comparing the Current Cobra with the C6, I just
>>>>>stated that the Cobra puts more power to the ground to make my
>>>>>point about the base C5.
>>>>
>>>>Aside from the engine changes the C6 isn't that far off from a C5 in
>>>>handling. In fact, the C6 isn't a new chassis but a tweaked version
>>>>of the C5. While power to the ground is important that is just one
>>>>component that makes for a good all around performance car.
>>>
>>>
>>>This is kinda what I'm trying to explain. The Cobra is a good all
>>>around performance car. The Vette handles better, the Cobra's
>>>faster. the Vette has better aero, the Cobra has back seats and a
>>>trunk. Different cars but a similar performance level considering
>>>the differences in the functionality of the two.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>BTW, the upcoming Z06 is going to be one nasty sports car. My
>>>>>>guess is it will handily trounce about every sports car selling
>>>>>>for under $100k and give the Ford GT a good scare stock for stock.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why is it that the C6 Z06 rumors are so believable (have it running
>>>>>with the GT, which I don't believe) and the Cobra rumors are way
>>>>>off base (that it will out run and handle as well as a base C6)?
>>>>
>>>>I don't know what the new Cobra will be but I suspect it will have
>>>>the same drive train as the '03-'04 cars. IMO, that is one of the
>>>>best, if not the best, engine ever put in a mass produced
>>>>automobile. Why mess with success? I think Ford will probably
>>>>tweak it to make a little more than 400 hp.
>>>
>>>
>>>It already does make more than 400, dyno results on stock Cobras put
>>>the output at closer to 425. The next Cobra will most likely use an
>>>aluminum block 5.4L Twin-Screw with 450 - 550 rated horsepower
>>>similar to the GT engine. It may or may not be the same block used
>>>in the GT. It has been rumored that the Lightning and Cobra were to
>>>use the same engine before the Lightning was put on the back burner.
>>>Ford used the iron 4.6L block in the current Cobra for warrantee and
>>>longevity reasons. A 5.4L would be able to make more power with less
>>>stress on the block, the Twin-Screw also helps in this respect so a
>>>lighter aluminum block can be used.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The current Cobra already out run's the current C5, there is no
>>>>>question about that. The current Cobra is the fastest Mustang ever
>>>>>sold to the public and the second best handling Mustang ever sold
>>>>>to the public, with the '00 Cobra R being the first. So why is it
>>>>>so hard to believe that the new Cobra built on the new platform
>>>>>will not again be faster than the current C6 Corvette and handle
>>>>>close to if not as well as it does? I know the new platform will
>>>>>still have some weight problems, but that's not as detrimental to
>>>>>handling as other factors that have been corrected from the old
>>>>>chassis.
>>>>
>>>>The problem the Mustang has when put up against the Vette is a
>>>>result of the intended use of each car. The Mustang is meant to be
>>>>a daily driver that is affordable. This results in driving
>>>>positions, car's center of gravity location etc. that is not
>>>>optimized for all out performance. The chassis is a derivative of a
>>>>four door sedan which has compromises from the standpoint of
>>>>performance. This isn't a bad thing. It's just what Ford had to
>>>>do to keep it affordable and functional for its intended buyers.
>>>>While the chassis is light years ahead of the old Fox platform it
>>>>still has compromises that affect the car's performance. I think
>>>>Ford has hit a home run with the new Stang but this doesn't mean it
>>>>is a competitor for the Vette.
>>>
>>>
>>>I think a Cobra on the new platform will at least have the same small
>>>performance gap that the current Cobra has with the Vette now. The
>>>new Mustang platform is, don't quote me here, 32% more ridgid than
>>>the Fox4 chasis.
>>>
>>> > Now the Vette is a completely different story. It was designed
>>>from
>>>
>>>
>>>>the ground up to be a two seater sports car. No major compromises
>>>>were necessary during its design. This means independent rear
>>>>suspensions that aren't an after thought retrofit, lower center of
>>>>mass, trannies located behind the driver to optimize weight
>>>>distribution, front suspension that doesn't compromise for engine
>>>>size (like in the new Mustang) and many, many other items that
>>>>enhance performance. All these things add up to a car that is quite
>>>>a capable performer even for the price of $50k. Hell, you can't buy
>>>>a loaded pickup truck for much less than that and many SUV's cost
>>>>more!
>>>
>>>
>>>There are other automobiles that will out handle the Vette for alot
>>>less, now these will not have the power of a V8 but the Vette isn't
>>>the best handler out there for the money either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I can't believe that so many people on a Mustang news group put the
>>>>>Corvette on such a high pedestal while they kick the Mustang to the
>>>>>curb. Makes no sense...
>>>>
>>>>I'm not kicking the Mustang to the curb. I have one sitting in my
>>>>garage that I'll keep until I'm taking a dirt nap. That being
>>>>said, I also won't take a position of making the Mustang out to be
>>>>more than what it is - a very good pony car at a very good price
>>>>that can be a daily driver, if necessary. IMO, the new Mustang
>>>>fills this role almost to perfection but that's about as far as I
>>>>will go until I see what Ford does with the Cobra version. I do
>>>>know that they can only do so much with the car (i.e chassis)
>>>>because of it's basic design function.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm not making it more than it is either, I'm stating facts. The
>>>Cobra is faster and more powerful than the Vette. (comparing same
>>>years here) The Vette may handle better, but not by a wide enough
>>>margin in some cases to beat a Cobra. (I said some cases) The Vette
>>>is a two seat sports car where the Cobra has back seats and a usable
>>>trunk, which I prefer to have. And if I owned a Vette I'd at least
>>>know who my comptition was, or soon find out.
>>
>>Go to a road course and race against a C5 Vette with a competent
>>driver and then get back to me. Just the advantage in braking alone
>>will give the Vette a tremendous advantage over a Cobra. The Vette
>>is just plain easier to drive fast which will make it faster than a
>>Cobra, especially with an amateur drivers. At the strip you might
>>have a slight advantage but it ends there. I'm not looking to start
>>an agreement... just giving a reality check.
>
>
> There are a few guys over on svtperformance that roadrace Cobras and don't
> have much of a problem. I never said that the Vette wasn't a better handler,
> I'm sick of hearing how bad the Cobra handles compared to it. It's not as
> bad as people tend to think. A great driver in a Cobra could easily out
> drive a good driver in a Vette. For the $$ the Cobra is a good handler and
> (damn I hate using this arguement) with the price difference could modify to
> similar handling levels. But were talking stock for stock here and the Cobra
> can hold it's own for what it is.
The Cobra handles quite well and I don't think it should be bashed, but,
it can use some upgrades. From my personal experience I can tell you I
have been auto crossing with my car and there were several 03 Cobra's,
and a few C5 Vette's. Cobra's at the time were new and unmodded, Vette's
were regular members and competing in national SCCA events. I had
whittled my time down to 72 secs. Cobra's were 80-85 range. Vette's 63
secs. No Stang came close to the Vettes. I had a talk with an 00 R model
owner once and he admitted to me that there was no way to make his car
run with the Vette's.
That said, I just saw a post over at Modulardepot.com were someone
scanned in a page from Motor Trend,(IIRC) and it says that "the boys at
Dearborn are reporting", (so take it for what it's worth) that the next
SVT Mustang is to be called the Shelby Mustang Cobra. It's to have the
same 5.4 550 hp motor as the GT and will have a solid rear axle.
They say it's targeted at the Vette and the Wiper? Hmmmmm
Exciting to hear no less.

--
Tropic Green Y2K 5 Speed Mustang GT
With Bits and Pieces
http://tinyurl.com/3w3sv

But the other question is which car attracts more women and gets more looks.
OK I'll be more of a generalist and use the term opposite sex instead of women.
(But I ain't goin for that same sex stuff ).