Electric Vehicles

The news is that production capacity for lithium ion batteries is
coming on-line. And these plants are partially funded by recent
Federal grants. Of course these are batteries for electric vehicles
and hybrids. What's the problem ?

Well, there's an electric vehicle benchmark and it's the Tesla
Roadster. The advantage of the Tesla Roadster is not that it is small
or that it only has two seats but the advantage is a vehicle
construction type that is both strong and lightweight. The Tesla
Roadster has a frame of extruded aluminum in tall cross-sections and
then has a fiberglass bodywork over the frame. The car is then strong
enough to carry the batteries but the total weight of the vehicle
including batteries is very reasonable. The benchmark is that the
Tesla Roadster has a range of 245 miles while having a vehicle weight
that is only 7.12% more than a traditional vehicle. (In this case the
Tesla Roadster weight is compared to an automatic transmission Mazda
MX5 which is a similar size vehicle but of unibody construction and
with an internal combustion engine.)

So the problem is that there is not any electric vehicles on the
horizon that meet the benchmark. This is the obvious failure of the
electric vehicle. Of course for the Tesla Roadster to set the
benchmark that car is then very expensive. Well, the batteries are
expensive and the vehicle construction method is expensive.

But the failure of the electric vehicle ? Well not exactly because
there is a fuel cell vehicle that meets the benchmark. It's the Honda
Clarity which is more like in consumer testing rather than in consumer
sales but in a few consumer hands. Now the Honda Clarity has a range
of 240 miles and a weight that is 8.32% more than a traditional
vehicle. (Here the weight of the Honda Clarity is compared to a 4-
cylinder Toyota Camry which has similar body and wheelbase
dimensions.)

Of course a fuel cell vehicle fuels with hydrogen, produces
electricity from a chemical reaction and then drives an electric
motor. And the hydrogen fueling stations are in locations that have a
few fuel cell buses running. For instance Southern California has
about a dozen hydrogen stations, Northern California has a few
hydrogen stations, Chicago has a few hydrogen stations, NYC has one or
two hydrogen stations, and Orlando has a few hydrogen stations.

So the final point here is that the Federal government has a battery
program but no hydrogen program.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:22:04 -0700 (PDT), PolicySpy
> wrote:

>The news is that production capacity for lithium ion batteries is
>coming on-line. And these plants are partially funded by recent
>Federal grants. Of course these are batteries for electric vehicles
>and hybrids. What's the problem ?
>
>Well, there's an electric vehicle benchmark and it's the Tesla
>Roadster. The advantage of the Tesla Roadster is not that it is small
>or that it only has two seats but the advantage is a vehicle
>construction type that is both strong and lightweight. The Tesla
>Roadster has a frame of extruded aluminum in tall cross-sections and
>then has a fiberglass bodywork over the frame. The car is then strong
>enough to carry the batteries but the total weight of the vehicle
>including batteries is very reasonable. The benchmark is that the
>Tesla Roadster has a range of 245 miles while having a vehicle weight
>that is only 7.12% more than a traditional vehicle. (In this case the
>Tesla Roadster weight is compared to an automatic transmission Mazda
>MX5 which is a similar size vehicle but of unibody construction and
>with an internal combustion engine.)
>
>So the problem is that there is not any electric vehicles on the
>horizon that meet the benchmark. This is the obvious failure of the
>electric vehicle. Of course for the Tesla Roadster to set the
>benchmark that car is then very expensive. Well, the batteries are
>expensive and the vehicle construction method is expensive.
>
>But the failure of the electric vehicle ? Well not exactly because
>there is a fuel cell vehicle that meets the benchmark. It's the Honda
>Clarity which is more like in consumer testing rather than in consumer
>sales but in a few consumer hands. Now the Honda Clarity has a range
>of 240 miles and a weight that is 8.32% more than a traditional
>vehicle. (Here the weight of the Honda Clarity is compared to a 4-
>cylinder Toyota Camry which has similar body and wheelbase
>dimensions.)
>
>Of course a fuel cell vehicle fuels with hydrogen, produces
>electricity from a chemical reaction and then drives an electric
>motor. And the hydrogen fueling stations are in locations that have a
>few fuel cell buses running. For instance Southern California has
>about a dozen hydrogen stations, Northern California has a few
>hydrogen stations, Chicago has a few hydrogen stations, NYC has one or
>two hydrogen stations, and Orlando has a few hydrogen stations.
>
>So the final point here is that the Federal government has a battery
>program but no hydrogen program.


Do you know what Henry Ford 1 said about electric cars
more than 100 (one-hundred) years ago?

Nothing has changed since then.

(Unfortunately I have only the German edition,
do not want to re-translate)

w.

>
> Where will the batteries be manufactured?? How will the electricity to
> charge these batteries be generated??

The existing grid can handle charging 10's of millions of EV's without
any changes.
Ben

On Sep 15, 4:15*pm, ben91932 > wrote:
> > Where will the batteries be manufactured?? How will the electricity to
> > charge these batteries be generated??
>
> The existing grid can handle charging 10's of millions of EV's without
> any changes.
> Ben


References, please?

Everything from the power plant to the driveway outlet, of course...

In sci.physics ben91932 > wrote:
>
>>
>> Where will the batteries be manufactured?? How will the electricity to
>> charge these batteries be generated??
>
> The existing grid can handle charging 10's of millions of EV's without
> any changes.
> Ben

Maybe if you somehow restrict all charging until after 11 PM, particularly
in the summer months.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In article >,
ben91932 > wrote:
>
>> Where will the batteries be manufactured?? How will the electricity to
>> charge these batteries be generated??
>
>The existing grid can handle charging 10's of millions of EV's without
>any changes.

Sadly not. The existing grid is in pretty lousy shape, all things considered,
and really can't handle the existing demand all that reliably. Mind you,
it's not like being in the Phillipines with rolling blackouts, but it's
not anything like the safety margins we had in the sixties and seventies.

But, I would say that upgrading the grid and providing more generation
closer to the points of demand is something that is going to have to happen
soon if we want to continue the comfortable lives we all lead. And if we
are doing that, planning for EV demand is just a short step beyond.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

> >> Where will the batteries be manufactured?? How will the electricity to
> >> charge these batteries be generated??
>
> >The existing grid can handle charging 10's of millions of EV's without
> >any changes.
>
> Sadly not.

The immediate problem isn't the grid but getting an affordable EV
suitable as a second car for commuting.

We'll cross the grid bridge when we get to it.


Bret Cahill

Vic Smith > wrote:
>>References, please?
>>
>>Everything from the power plant to the driveway outlet, of course...
>
>Typical home central air draws 15-20 amps.
>
>The GM volt supposedly charges in
>6 hours at 12 amps
>8 hours at 8 amps.

Okay, that would be a battery with 9 kilowatt-hours total capacity,
which is kind of small.

>Claimed battery range 40 miles.

Okay, if you're driving for 40 minutes with a 9 kilowatt hours, that
gives you about 7 KW power, or about 10 horsepower. That's kind of
low but it's not impossible.

Still... what good is a car with a 40 mile range?

>Plugs into any 120v outlet that can take the amp draw without tripping
>a breaker.

If you want to have an actual practical vehicle with shorter charging
time and longer driving time, you're going to have to have a good bit
more current. Not an insane amount, mind you, but a good bit more.

People drive a lot, that's part of the problem. People drive a whole lot.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In sci.physics Scott Dorsey > wrote:
> Vic Smith > wrote:
>>>References, please?
>>>
>>>Everything from the power plant to the driveway outlet, of course...
>>
>>Typical home central air draws 15-20 amps.
>>
>>The GM volt supposedly charges in
>>6 hours at 12 amps
>>8 hours at 8 amps.
>
> Okay, that would be a battery with 9 kilowatt-hours total capacity,
> which is kind of small.
>
>>Claimed battery range 40 miles.
>
> Okay, if you're driving for 40 minutes with a 9 kilowatt hours, that
> gives you about 7 KW power, or about 10 horsepower. That's kind of
> low but it's not impossible.
>
> Still... what good is a car with a 40 mile range?
>
>>Plugs into any 120v outlet that can take the amp draw without tripping
>>a breaker.
>
> If you want to have an actual practical vehicle with shorter charging
> time and longer driving time, you're going to have to have a good bit
> more current. Not an insane amount, mind you, but a good bit more.
>
> People drive a lot, that's part of the problem. People drive a whole lot.

Nope, it isn't a problem, it is a reality of life unless you want to live
like a medival goat herder.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On 15 Sep 2010 20:32:50 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Vic Smith > wrote:
>>>References, please?
>>>
>>>Everything from the power plant to the driveway outlet, of course...
>>
>>Typical home central air draws 15-20 amps.
>>
>>The GM volt supposedly charges in
>>6 hours at 12 amps
>>8 hours at 8 amps.
>
>Okay, that would be a battery with 9 kilowatt-hours total capacity,
>which is kind of small.
>
>>Claimed battery range 40 miles.
>
>Okay, if you're driving for 40 minutes with a 9 kilowatt hours, that
>gives you about 7 KW power, or about 10 horsepower. That's kind of
>low but it's not impossible.
>
>Still... what good is a car with a 40 mile range?
>
>>Plugs into any 120v outlet that can take the amp draw without tripping
>>a breaker.
>
>If you want to have an actual practical vehicle with shorter charging
>time and longer driving time, you're going to have to have a good bit
>more current. Not an insane amount, mind you, but a good bit more.
>

That's why I included the 100 mile range Nissan Leaf.
It uses more juice.

>People drive a lot, that's part of the problem. People drive a whole lot.
>--scott

Uh, no. Maybe you do.
Don't buy an electric.
I've read the average commute is 32 miles round trip.

Except when I go on vacation and maybe 3 times a year for family
events, I haven't driven more than 24 miles in a day for years.
I go across the county line every few weeks to get cigarettes.
That's the 24 mile round trip.
My commute and my wife's commute have both been 12 miles round trip
since 1993. For a couple years in there mine was 24 miles round trip,
and for another couple years it was 30 miles round trip.

My long distance vacation driving is 6 days total there and back.
So there's no more than 10 days a year where I exceed 24 miles.
That leaves 355 days where I don't need an IC engine.
Not counting my IC lawnmower and weedwhacker.

40 miles a day may seem a small distance to you, but for millions
that's more than they drive.
The big problem is the price of the car, not the range.
I don't see an electric in my future.

I've thought of keeping just tiny gas-miser cars at home for local
driving and renting a road car when I go on vacation.
If I flew on airplanes that's what I'd do.
But I don't fly, so I need a road car.

You saying what you said is like me saying I a SUV or a pickup is
useless because they don't suit me.
There's plenty of market for them and they'll be plenty for
"short-range" electrics.

Longest commute I ever had was 75 miles round trip for a couple years
back in 1980-82. Think gas was about 60-70 cents then and I drove
a Ford pickup with a 352.
Long time ago.
I got smart and bought a house near where I expected to work, and not
far from the train station if I had to work down town.
Cost me more for the house, but haven't had a long commute since.
Plenty who did the same but have more money than me will buy those
electrics just for their commute and grocery-getting.
Just my opinion, but we'll know for sure in a few years.

--Vic