Chrysler 300M

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote:

> I have a 2002 300M Special (black on black). In the six years and
> 77,000 km I've owned this car I've had no real complaints, but road
> noise is greater than I would expect in a car of its class and it
> appears to be largely tyre related;

Do you have 18" or 17" wheels?

Bill Putney wrote:

> > ... but road noise is greater than I would expect in a car of its
> > class and it appears to be largely tyre related;
>
> Yes - it is tires, Paul. Goodyears? Anyway - you might consider a
> good touring tire - something like the Cooper CS-4.

As I said in a recent post, for a high (to ultra-high) performance tire,
that is also quiet, I recommend the Yokahama Advan S4. I see that
Tirerack is selling them for $165 each (which is kinda steep - I don't
think I paid that much 2 years ago, but maybe I did...)

If you drive the car in snow (and where the snow can be as high as
scraping the bottom of the car at times) then the 300m really performs
well with dedicated snow tires. I can plow through deep drifts and hear
the snow scrape the bottom of the car as if it had 4wd.

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:15:59 -0400, MoPar Man > wrote:

>"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote:
>
>> I have a 2002 300M Special (black on black). In the six years and
>> 77,000 km I've owned this car I've had no real complaints, but road
>> noise is greater than I would expect in a car of its class and it
>> appears to be largely tyre related;
>
>Do you have 18" or 17" wheels?

Hi MPM,

The 300 are 17 inch and the Magnum R/T is equipped with 18s.

Cheers,
Paul

MoPar Man wrote:

> ...- Chrysler dealer service garage tells me the cost (part and labor) for
> changing the timing belt and water pump will be close to $1000. Can I
> get a reality check on that?

That's towards the very high side of reasonable, but I guess not
surprising for a dealer. I had my 3.2 (exact same engine as 3.5 -
smaller bore) done about 2-1/2 years ago at an independent shop - I
supplied the parts at around $360, and they charged my $300 flat rate (I
think they were on the low side - but it included accessory belts and
tensioners, upper and lower rad, hoses, and thermostat). I think fair
price for t-belt and water pump is $650-$850 parts & labor.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

MoPar Man wrote:

> ...If you drive the car in snow (and where the snow can be as high as
> scraping the bottom of the car at times) then the 300m really performs
> well with dedicated snow tires. I can plow through deep drifts and hear
> the snow scrape the bottom of the car as if it had 4wd.

Yeah - and rip your air dam off! What do you call deep?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Bill Putney wrote:

> > ...- Chrysler dealer service garage tells me the cost (parts and
> > labor) for changing the timing belt and water pump will be close
> > to $1000. Can I get a reality check on that?
>
> That's towards the very high side of reasonable, but I guess not
> surprising for a dealer.

Remember too that here in Canada, pretty much all retailers have not
adjusted their prices to take into account that the Canadian dollar has
been at (or within a few %) of par with the USD for the past year.

So maybe 3 or 4 years ago a price of $1000 (CDN) to change a timing belt
and water pump would have equated to maybe $750 USD. Today, that same
$1000 CDN equates to $950 USD.

This was exactly the case a few months ago when I was pricing just the
parts cost (at Chrysler dealerships) in Ontario vs Detroit for part of
the exhaust system for my 300m. I was looking at a 35% higher price
here vs the same part in Detroit.

I was looking into some tires for a relative, and recommended Goodyear
Firehawk 500's. A set of 4 (mounted, balanced, all taxes in) was about
$425 - $450 in the Detroit area. Meanwhile in Ontario, the all-in price
is more like $550.

Bill Putney wrote:

> > I can plow through deep drifts and hear
> > the snow scrape the bottom of the car as if it had 4wd.
>
> Yeah - and rip your air dam off!

I took that off my 300m a year or two ago.

> What do you call deep?

An overnight blizzard that dumps maybe a foot of snow over-top an inch
of hard-packed snow in a residential subdivision that might not get
plowed until late next morning.

MoPar Man wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>
>>> ...- Chrysler dealer service garage tells me the cost (parts and
>>> labor) for changing the timing belt and water pump will be close
>>> to $1000. Can I get a reality check on that?
>> That's towards the very high side of reasonable, but I guess not
>> surprising for a dealer.
>
> Remember too that here in Canada, pretty much all retailers have not
> adjusted their prices to take into account that the Canadian dollar has
> been at (or within a few %) of par with the USD for the past year.
>
> So maybe 3 or 4 years ago a price of $1000 (CDN) to change a timing belt
> and water pump would have equated to maybe $750 USD. Today, that same
> $1000 CDN equates to $950 USD.
>
> This was exactly the case a few months ago when I was pricing just the
> parts cost (at Chrysler dealerships) in Ontario vs Detroit for part of
> the exhaust system for my 300m. I was looking at a 35% higher price
> here vs the same part in Detroit.
>
> I was looking into some tires for a relative, and recommended Goodyear
> Firehawk 500's. A set of 4 (mounted, balanced, all taxes in) was about
> $425 - $450 in the Detroit area. Meanwhile in Ontario, the all-in price
> is more like $550.

I missed where you said you lived in Canada. Some other pertinent info.:
I used all quality aftermarket parts (Gates and Felpro) except for the
water pump (and its gasket) and the hydraulic tensioner, which I got OEM
from discount on-line dealers - so may have saved a little there
relative to all dealer-supplied parts.

But again, remember that my parts and labor included replacing
peripheral stuff like the radiator hoses and thermostat (thermostat is a
PITA to replace on this car). I forgot to mention before, it also
included both accessory belts and their tensioner pulleys. So if you're
not doing the hoses, t-stat, accessory belts and their tensioner
pulleys, that makes your price look even higher.

Here is another important fact: My parts included the hydraulic
tensioner (not just the tensioner pulley) - which almost certainly is
not included in the quote you got from your dealer - that part alone was
$90.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Bill Putney wrote:

> Some other pertinent info.:
> I used all quality aftermarket parts (Gates and Felpro) ...

My '00 300m and '01 Ram haven't needed enough parts over the years for
me to delve into the area of exactly who makes exactly what part, and
which retailer in my area carries which brand, and which brand is
better, or which brand is really made by someone else, etc etc etc.

> But again, remember that my parts and labor included replacing
> peripheral stuff like the radiator hoses and thermostat
> (thermostat is a PITA to replace on this car). I forgot to mention
> before, it also included both accessory belts and their tensioner
> pulleys.

I mentioned in another post that because of visible wear (I think at the
70k mile point) that I had the serpentine belt changed along with any
relavent pulley or tensioner associated with the belt just to avoid
future problems with those parts.

Are some of the parts you're mentioning (above) the same as the
serpentine belt and it's pulley's or tensioner(s)?

If (as planned) I get the timing belt changed 2 years from now (at 100k
miles), will the current 1 or 2-year-old serpentine belt and
pulleys/tensioner(s) be re-used, or should I (again) replace them?

> So if you're not doing the hoses, t-stat, accessory belts and their
> tensioner pulleys, that makes your price look even higher.

I don't know if my *very rough guestimate* of $1000 included any of
those parts.

I believe it was $600 labor, and $300 parts, and probably the parts were
only waterpump and timing belt.

> Here is another important fact: My parts included the hydraulic
> tensioner (not just the tensioner pulley) - which almost certainly
> is not included in the quote you got from your dealer - that part
> alone was $90.

Would it be considered normal or prudent to replace the hydraulic
tensioner at the same time the serpentine belt is changed at the 70-75k
mile mark?

MoPar Man wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>
>> Some other pertinent info.:
>> I used all quality aftermarket parts (Gates and Felpro) ...
>
> My '00 300m and '01 Ram haven't needed enough parts over the years for
> me to delve into the area of exactly who makes exactly what part, and
> which retailer in my area carries which brand, and which brand is
> better, or which brand is really made by someone else, etc etc etc.
>
>> But again, remember that my parts and labor included replacing
>> peripheral stuff like the radiator hoses and thermostat
>> (thermostat is a PITA to replace on this car). I forgot to mention
>> before, it also included both accessory belts and their tensioner
>> pulleys.
>
> I mentioned in another post that because of visible wear (I think at the
> 70k mile point) that I had the serpentine belt changed along with any
> relavent pulley or tensioner associated with the belt just to avoid
> future problems with those parts.

My only point in mentioning those things was to build my case further
that I thought the $1000 price was a little high - because my much lower
price included many other incidentals many or all of which are not
included in your price.

> Are some of the parts you're mentioning (above) the same as the
> serpentine belt and it's pulley's or tensioner(s)?

Yes. When I used the term "accessory belts", that is one serpentine
belt (drives the alternator and p.s. pump) and its tensioner pulley and
the V-belt that drives the a.c. compressor and its tensioner pulley.
With those two belts ("accessory belts") there are no tensioner parts
other than the pulleys (and their included bearings) as the tensioners
are simply a manually adjusted rigid bracket and a pulley (no spring
loaded self-adjusting mechanism) - IOW no tensioner parts on those two
belts to replace other than the pulleys (which come with their bearings).

> If (as planned) I get the timing belt changed 2 years from now (at 100k
> miles), will the current 1 or 2-year-old serpentine belt and
> pulleys/tensioner(s) be re-used, or should I (again) replace them?

For those belts, it depends on how many miles they have and their
general condition. As far as the tensioner pulleys, my personal rule of
thumb for my two LH cars is to change them every second time I change
the belts (only talking about the accessory belts and their tensioners
there - not the timing belt and its tensioner - the timing belt
tensioner gets replaced every time the timing belt does). Those pulley
bearings do definitely eventually wear out.

>> So if you're not doing the hoses, t-stat, accessory belts and their
>> tensioner pulleys, that makes your price look even higher.
>
> I don't know if my *very rough guestimate* of $1000 included any of
> those parts.

I can't imagine it would unless you specifically asked that they be
included. Generally if a shop or dealer quotes you something you asked
for and either you or they don't mention a particular part other than
the obvious (i.e., yes - they would replace the gasket with the water
pump), then you can assume it's not included. Disclaimer: I could be
wrong in this case.

> I believe it was $600 labor, and $300 parts, and probably the parts were
> only waterpump and timing belt.

My guess would be that it would be those and the timing belt tensioner
pulley - that could be considered one of those "obvious" parts. But on
second thought - you'd better ask. It would be stupid and dishonest of
them not to include that in the job, but - yeah - ask them specifically
what their quote includes. Don't assume nuttin'.

>> Here is another important fact: My parts included the hydraulic
>> tensioner (not just the tensioner pulley) - which almost certainly
>> is not included in the quote you got from your dealer - that part
>> alone was $90.

> Would it be considered normal or prudent to replace the hydraulic
> tensioner at the same time the serpentine belt is changed at the 70-75k
> mile mark?

Apparently some confusion the The hydraulic tensioner is not related
to the serpentine belt. The hydraulic tensionser is the thing
(spring-loaded rod) that presses the timing belt tensioner against the
timing belt to maintain tension. You ask if is considered normal or
prudent to replace it (but again, not related in any way to the
serpentine belt). I would say it is normally not replaced, but I would
add that it is a very critical part - if it were to fail, the timing
belt could slip and you could damage your engine (valves and pistons
hitting each other - not good). IOW - the likelihood of it failing is
very low, but the severity of it failing is very high. Only you can
make that call. You'd be saving $80-$100 by not replacing it, but there
is some small risk (that the old one would fail). Like I said - only
you can make the decision. I justified replacing mine by doing the
legwork of gathering my own parts (simultaneously getting top notch
parts and still saving a bit of money) and getting a good labor quote,
so it fit within the budget that my wife and I originally talked about.

If you meant to ask if you should have replace the tensioner pulley for
the serpentine belt when you replace the serpentine belt - again - a
judgement call. Like Clint Eastwood said "The question is: Do you feel
lucky". You could justify spending the additional $15 or so if you
aren't in a penny pinching mode, or you could chance it and wait until
the second belt replacement with some risk that it may start making
noise at an inconvenient time. I will add that they usually start
making noise with plenty of warning before they do something serious
like lock up on you and throw the belt or rip it in two.

All of the above are my opinions. Any number of people could disagree
with me on just about any point - and that's OK. Like I said - my opinions.

Let me add this summary on the belts and their tensioners because the
original and aftermarket manufacturers are very inconsistent in what
they call certain parts - it looks like they sometimes intentionally go
out of their way to confuse the consumer in that manner. So here is my
summary:

• There are three belts: Timing belt, serpentine belt (alternator and
power steering pump), V-belt (a.c.).

• There is a tensioner mechanism associated with the timing belt that
consist of two separately replaceable parts: (1) The tensioner pulley,
and (2) The hydraulic tensioner. (1) should be replaced every time the
timing belt is replaced. (2) can be replaced, but cost around $80 to
$100, and most people do not replace it, and never have a problem - your
money - your risk.

• Serpentine belt - has a tensioner pulley that should periodically be
replaced - either every time the belt gets replaced or every second time
it gets replaced - your call. Moderate chance it will go bad before the
second belt is replaced, but little chance of damage - it generally
gives plenty of warning (noise) before any serious damage is likely.

• V-belt - has a tensioner pulley that should periodically be replaced -
either every time the belt gets replaced or every second time it gets
replaced - your call. Moderate chance it will go bad before the second
belt is replaced, but little chance of damage - it generally gives
plenty of warning (noise) before any serious damage is likely. (And yes
- that was word-for-word what I said for the serpentine belt tensioner).


Here it is again:

TIMING BELT
TIMING BELT TENSIONER PULLEY (sometimes just called timing belt
tensioner just to confuse people because the timing belt tensioner
pulley and the timing belt hydraulic tensioner together comprise the
timing belt tensioner) - definitely replace this pulley with the timing
belt.
TIMING BELT HYDRAULIC TENSIONER - your option to replace or not

SERPENTINE BELT
SERPENTINE BELT TENSIONER PULLEY (automatically includes bearing) -
either replace with serpentine belt every time or every second time.

V-BELT
V-BELT TENSIONER PULLEY (automatically includes bearing) - either
replace with V-belt every time or every second time.


HTH!

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')