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#81
October 30th 04, 02:14 AM
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Bill Putney wrote: > Ken Weitzel wrote: > >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, >>> engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By >>> being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible >>> mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were >>> outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater >>> probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a >>> fuel leak. OK? >> >> >> >> Hi... >> >> I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides >> in this conversation. >> >> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if >> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what >> exactly occupies the remaining space? > > > If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump > (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100% full > of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one ingredient for > fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh? > > To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is inside > the pump with only liquid fuel). Hi Bill... Sorry I started now.  How about at the final few minutes of running out of fuel? How about turning on the ignition (running the pump for a few secs) when the tank is "empty" ? How about a flaw in the diptube? I'm gonna respectfully suggest that were I given a choice; I'd take a pump in the engine compartment (the other side of the firewall being a nice side effect bonus) Ken 
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#82
October 30th 04, 02:14 AM
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Bill Putney wrote: > Ken Weitzel wrote: > >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, >>> engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By >>> being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible >>> mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were >>> outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater >>> probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a >>> fuel leak. OK? >> >> >> >> Hi... >> >> I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides >> in this conversation. >> >> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if >> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what >> exactly occupies the remaining space? > > > If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump > (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100% full > of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one ingredient for > fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh? > > To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is inside > the pump with only liquid fuel). Hi Bill... Sorry I started now. How about at the final few minutes of running out of fuel? How about turning on the ignition (running the pump for a few secs) when the tank is "empty" ? How about a flaw in the diptube? I'm gonna respectfully suggest that were I given a choice; I'd take a pump in the engine compartment (the other side of the firewall being a nice side effect bonus) Ken
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#83
October 30th 04, 02:25 AM
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"Ken Weitzel" > wrote in message news:RPBgd.58533$nl.30145@pd7tw3no... > > > Thomas Moats wrote: > > > "Ken Weitzel" > wrote in message > > news:6vAgd.58160$%k.40632@pd7tw2no... > > > >> > wrote: > >> > >>>Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, > >>>engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By > >>>being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible > >>>mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were > >>>outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater > >>>probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a > >>>fuel leak. OK? > >> > >>Hi... > >> > >>I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides > >>in this conversation. > >> > >>I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if > >>I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what > >>exactly occupies the remaining space? > >> > > > > > > > > Fuel vapor No oxygen and under slight pressure which keeps oxygen from getting > > in, or shall I say not enough to support any type of combustion. No degree > > needed for that. > > Hi... > > Or maybe one is > > See if I follow.... they make a mediocre attempt > at creating a closed environment. Then we remove > some of the contents (burn some of the gas). And > end up sith a slight pressure? > > Ken > > Excess fuel is returned back to the tank. What temperature does gasoline evaporate? Just that question should spark some thought. Now add heated fuel, heated by compression and being near a heat source ( engine ), that statement should provoke some thought as well. Take some gasoline, put it in a closed non-vented container and shake it, then open the lid, notice there is now pressure in the container? Try to draw liquid out of a sealed container, what happens? It collapses. So the tank is designed to hold a small amount of pressure made by the fuel vapors. This is a DOT requirement. There are two valves on a tank. One is in the fuel cap the other is the tank vent. This provides a sealed tank that holds a slight pressure of no more than 2.1 psi over atmospheric pressure.
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#84
October 30th 04, 02:25 AM
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"Ken Weitzel" > wrote in message news:RPBgd.58533$nl.30145@pd7tw3no... > > > Thomas Moats wrote: > > > "Ken Weitzel" > wrote in message > > news:6vAgd.58160$%k.40632@pd7tw2no... > > > >> > wrote: > >> > >>>Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, > >>>engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By > >>>being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible > >>>mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were > >>>outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater > >>>probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a > >>>fuel leak. OK? > >> > >>Hi... > >> > >>I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides > >>in this conversation. > >> > >>I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if > >>I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what > >>exactly occupies the remaining space? > >> > > > > > > > > Fuel vapor No oxygen and under slight pressure which keeps oxygen from getting > > in, or shall I say not enough to support any type of combustion. No degree > > needed for that. > > Hi... > > Or maybe one is > > See if I follow.... they make a mediocre attempt > at creating a closed environment. Then we remove > some of the contents (burn some of the gas). And > end up sith a slight pressure? > > Ken > > Excess fuel is returned back to the tank. What temperature does gasoline evaporate? Just that question should spark some thought. Now add heated fuel, heated by compression and being near a heat source ( engine ), that statement should provoke some thought as well. Take some gasoline, put it in a closed non-vented container and shake it, then open the lid, notice there is now pressure in the container? Try to draw liquid out of a sealed container, what happens? It collapses. So the tank is designed to hold a small amount of pressure made by the fuel vapors. This is a DOT requirement. There are two valves on a tank. One is in the fuel cap the other is the tank vent. This provides a sealed tank that holds a slight pressure of no more than 2.1 psi over atmospheric pressure.
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#85
October 30th 04, 02:31 AM
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"Ken Weitzel" > wrote in message news:VVBgd.59231$%k.70@pd7tw2no... > > > Bill Putney wrote: > > > Ken Weitzel wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, > >>> engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By > >>> being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible > >>> mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were > >>> outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater > >>> probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a > >>> fuel leak. OK? > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi... > >> > >> I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides > >> in this conversation. > >> > >> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if > >> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what > >> exactly occupies the remaining space? > > > > > > If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump > > (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100% full > > of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one ingredient for > > fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh? > > > > To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is inside > > the pump with only liquid fuel). > > > Hi Bill... > > Sorry I started now. > > How about at the final few minutes of running out of > fuel? > No O2, no burn. > How about turning on the ignition (running the pump > for a few secs) when the tank is "empty" ? > Still no O2. > How about a flaw in the diptube? dibtube? Do you mean the fill neck? Hole in the fuel tank system can be dangerous, but you need to look at basic laws of physics, you may not be so worried. > > I'm gonna respectfully suggest that were I given > a choice; I'd take a pump in the engine compartment > (the other side of the firewall being a nice side > effect bonus) > The same sheet-metal that makes the "fire-wall" also separates you from the fuel tank. > Ken >
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#86
October 30th 04, 02:31 AM
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"Ken Weitzel" > wrote in message news:VVBgd.59231$%k.70@pd7tw2no... > > > Bill Putney wrote: > > > Ken Weitzel wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, > >>> engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By > >>> being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible > >>> mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were > >>> outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater > >>> probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a > >>> fuel leak. OK? > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi... > >> > >> I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides > >> in this conversation. > >> > >> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if > >> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what > >> exactly occupies the remaining space? > > > > > > If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump > > (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100% full > > of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one ingredient for > > fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh? > > > > To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is inside > > the pump with only liquid fuel). > > > Hi Bill... > > Sorry I started now. > > How about at the final few minutes of running out of > fuel? > No O2, no burn. > How about turning on the ignition (running the pump > for a few secs) when the tank is "empty" ? > Still no O2. > How about a flaw in the diptube? dibtube? Do you mean the fill neck? Hole in the fuel tank system can be dangerous, but you need to look at basic laws of physics, you may not be so worried. > > I'm gonna respectfully suggest that were I given > a choice; I'd take a pump in the engine compartment > (the other side of the firewall being a nice side > effect bonus) > The same sheet-metal that makes the "fire-wall" also separates you from the fuel tank. > Ken >
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#87
October 30th 04, 02:38 AM
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Ken Weitzel wrote:
> > > Bill Putney wrote: > >> Ken Weitzel wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, >>>> engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By >>>> being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible >>>> mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were >>>> outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater >>>> probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a >>>> fuel leak. OK? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi... >>> >>> I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides >>> in this conversation. >>> >>> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if >>> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what >>> exactly occupies the remaining space? >> >> >> >> If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump >> (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100% >> full of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one ingredient >> for fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh? >> >> To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is >> inside the pump with only liquid fuel). > > > > Hi Bill... > > Sorry I started now. > > How about at the final few minutes of running out of > fuel? > > How about turning on the ignition (running the pump > for a few secs) when the tank is "empty" ? > > How about a flaw in the diptube? > > I'm gonna respectfully suggest that were I given > a choice; I'd take a pump in the engine compartment > (the other side of the firewall being a nice side > effect bonus) How many cars have you heard of that have exploded or caught fire from an in-tank fuel pump? In my case, the answer is zero so I don't lose much sleep over it. I'm more worried about an inadvertant air bag deployment than I am about my gas tank exploding. The former is much more likely than that latter and I've heard of several occurrences of unintended airbag deployment. Matt
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#88
October 30th 04, 02:38 AM
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Ken Weitzel wrote:
> > > Bill Putney wrote: > >> Ken Weitzel wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical, >>>> engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By >>>> being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible >>>> mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were >>>> outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater >>>> probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a >>>> fuel leak. OK? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi... >>> >>> I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides >>> in this conversation. >>> >>> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if >>> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what >>> exactly occupies the remaining space? >> >> >> >> If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump >> (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100% >> full of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one ingredient >> for fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh? >> >> To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is >> inside the pump with only liquid fuel). > > > > Hi Bill... > > Sorry I started now. > > How about at the final few minutes of running out of > fuel? > > How about turning on the ignition (running the pump > for a few secs) when the tank is "empty" ? > > How about a flaw in the diptube? > > I'm gonna respectfully suggest that were I given > a choice; I'd take a pump in the engine compartment > (the other side of the firewall being a nice side > effect bonus) How many cars have you heard of that have exploded or caught fire from an in-tank fuel pump? In my case, the answer is zero so I don't lose much sleep over it. I'm more worried about an inadvertant air bag deployment than I am about my gas tank exploding. The former is much more likely than that latter and I've heard of several occurrences of unintended airbag deployment. Matt
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#89
October 30th 04, 03:27 AM
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"Thomas Moats" > wrote in message ... > The same sheet-metal that makes the "fire-wall" also separates you from > the fuel > tank. > Due to the lawyers I don't believe we have firewalls any more...... that would insinuate that a fire is possible. They are now called bulkheads. Bob
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#90
October 30th 04, 03:27 AM
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"Thomas Moats" > wrote in message ... > The same sheet-metal that makes the "fire-wall" also separates you from > the fuel > tank. > Due to the lawyers I don't believe we have firewalls any more...... that would insinuate that a fire is possible. They are now called bulkheads. Bob
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