In-the-tank fuel pumps cause death and destruction

> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:35:47 -0400, "Thomas Moats" > wrote:
>
> >
> > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:54:06 -0400, "Al Smith" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Wait a minute. Maybe there are shortcuts in some cases - and I have
only
> >> >done
> >> >it once - but every fuel pump replacement I have heard about
> >> >involves dropping the tank.
> >> >
> >>
> >> None of the intank fuel pumps used on carbureted Toyota vehicles
> >> required removal of the tank to replace. All had screwed on access
> >> covers either in the trunk or floor under the rear seat to access the
> >> fuel sender.fuel pickup/fuel pump.. Many other vehicles were built the
> >> same.
> >>
> >> Many of today's vehicles DO require dropping the tank - and MANY of
> >> those tanks are plastic, not steel.. Many of them have quick
> >> disconnects to disconnect the fuel lines, and if less than 1/4 full
> >> pose a very limitted danger of spillage when removing. They are also
> >> usually relatively simple to drain with a proper fuel transfer pump,
> >> either electrical, air powered, or manual.
> >>
> >> Most fuel injected vehicles can be easily drained from under the hood
> >> by connecting the transfer pump to the service valve on the fuel rail
> >> - without getting ANY fuel or fuel vapours into the shop, and with NO
> >> danger of fire.
> >
> >If you have about a week to wait for the fuel to tranfer........
>

Are you suggesting buying a 3rd pump so that you can drain the tank
to eventually install the 2nd pump???

> No,, about half an hour maximum will empty a 72 liter tank - and
> totally unmonitored, so you can do another job while it is being
> drained. The schrader valve is removed to remove a significant amount
> of restriction from the line.
> >
> >
> ><snip>
> >
>

> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:35:47 -0400, "Thomas Moats" > wrote:
>
> >
> > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:54:06 -0400, "Al Smith" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Wait a minute. Maybe there are shortcuts in some cases - and I have
only
> >> >done
> >> >it once - but every fuel pump replacement I have heard about
> >> >involves dropping the tank.
> >> >
> >>
> >> None of the intank fuel pumps used on carbureted Toyota vehicles
> >> required removal of the tank to replace. All had screwed on access
> >> covers either in the trunk or floor under the rear seat to access the
> >> fuel sender.fuel pickup/fuel pump.. Many other vehicles were built the
> >> same.
> >>
> >> Many of today's vehicles DO require dropping the tank - and MANY of
> >> those tanks are plastic, not steel.. Many of them have quick
> >> disconnects to disconnect the fuel lines, and if less than 1/4 full
> >> pose a very limitted danger of spillage when removing. They are also
> >> usually relatively simple to drain with a proper fuel transfer pump,
> >> either electrical, air powered, or manual.
> >>
> >> Most fuel injected vehicles can be easily drained from under the hood
> >> by connecting the transfer pump to the service valve on the fuel rail
> >> - without getting ANY fuel or fuel vapours into the shop, and with NO
> >> danger of fire.
> >
> >If you have about a week to wait for the fuel to tranfer........
>

Are you suggesting buying a 3rd pump so that you can drain the tank
to eventually install the 2nd pump???

> No,, about half an hour maximum will empty a 72 liter tank - and
> totally unmonitored, so you can do another job while it is being
> drained. The schrader valve is removed to remove a significant amount
> of restriction from the line.
> >
> >
> ><snip>
> >
>

Ray wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>>>> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if
>>>>> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what
>>>>> exactly occupies the remaining space?
>>
>>>> If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump
>>>> (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100%
>>>> full of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one
>>>> ingredient for fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh?
>>>>
>>>> To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is
>>>> inside the pump with only liquid fuel).

> wouldn't the arcing be only where the actual motor assembly would be?
> could this not be a sealed unit? Would you even want gas in there?...

Hey hey hey! One question at a time! 8^)

Actually, the commutation (brushes) are in the fuel that is flowing thru
the pump. The motor armature, magnets, pumping elements, and commutator
are in the same compartment swimmimg/spinning in the fuel.

> I
> would think gas does a poor job of lubrication - you'd have some kind of
> grease in the actual motor assembly, wouldn't you?

Nope. The "bearings" in the ones I worked with (supplied to GM and
Ford) were simply holes molded into the plastic end caps of the motors -
again - in fuel. That is typical of the modern automotive fuel pump.
One reason fuel pumps can become noisy is that those plastic bushings
wear (actually, usually the metal shafts wear a lot faster than the
plastic due to abrassive glass fibers in the plastic) and the armature
starts rattling around.

> the gears that pump the gasoline won't be arcing...

No - but there are brushes.

> fwiw, my fish tank pump uses a sealed pump assy with a magnetic drive
> assembly - no chance of water touching the electrical parts.

Magnetic drives are a great way of eliminating rotating seals, but that
magnetic drive wouldn't transmit the torque needed to develop 60-90 psi.
8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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Ray wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>>>> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if
>>>>> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what
>>>>> exactly occupies the remaining space?
>>
>>>> If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump
>>>> (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100%
>>>> full of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one
>>>> ingredient for fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh?
>>>>
>>>> To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is
>>>> inside the pump with only liquid fuel).

> wouldn't the arcing be only where the actual motor assembly would be?
> could this not be a sealed unit? Would you even want gas in there?...

Hey hey hey! One question at a time! 8^)

Actually, the commutation (brushes) are in the fuel that is flowing thru
the pump. The motor armature, magnets, pumping elements, and commutator
are in the same compartment swimmimg/spinning in the fuel.

> I
> would think gas does a poor job of lubrication - you'd have some kind of
> grease in the actual motor assembly, wouldn't you?

Nope. The "bearings" in the ones I worked with (supplied to GM and
Ford) were simply holes molded into the plastic end caps of the motors -
again - in fuel. That is typical of the modern automotive fuel pump.
One reason fuel pumps can become noisy is that those plastic bushings
wear (actually, usually the metal shafts wear a lot faster than the
plastic due to abrassive glass fibers in the plastic) and the armature
starts rattling around.

> the gears that pump the gasoline won't be arcing...

No - but there are brushes.

> fwiw, my fish tank pump uses a sealed pump assy with a magnetic drive
> assembly - no chance of water touching the electrical parts.

Magnetic drives are a great way of eliminating rotating seals, but that
magnetic drive wouldn't transmit the torque needed to develop 60-90 psi.
8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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Ray wrote:

> My buddy's Nova with an external Holley electric pump whines.
> Fortunately, you can't hear it over the exhaust.
>
> Ray

Sometimes that has a lot to do with the type of pump. For example, the
roller vane type pump is inherently noisy. Often it would be the design
of chioce for technical reasons, but the vehicle manufacturer will go
with a different type for that reason alone. GM uses roller vanes but
very sparingly because of noise.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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Ray wrote:

> My buddy's Nova with an external Holley electric pump whines.
> Fortunately, you can't hear it over the exhaust.
>
> Ray

Sometimes that has a lot to do with the type of pump. For example, the
roller vane type pump is inherently noisy. Often it would be the design
of chioce for technical reasons, but the vehicle manufacturer will go
with a different type for that reason alone. GM uses roller vanes but
very sparingly because of noise.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Thomas Moats wrote:

> Bull****
> Won't work
> Slow

Well, Thomas, we're arguing from what we've done and what's worked. You,
on the other hand, are insisting that it couldn't possibly work.
Difference is, we've done it and it has worked.

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Thomas Moats wrote:

> Bull****
> Won't work
> Slow

Well, Thomas, we're arguing from what we've done and what's worked. You,
on the other hand, are insisting that it couldn't possibly work.
Difference is, we've done it and it has worked.

Matt Whiting wrote:

> Bill Putney wrote:
>
>> Matt Whiting wrote:

>>> I'm more worried about an inadvertant air bag deployment than I am
>>> about my gas tank exploding. The former is much more likely than
>>> that latter and I've heard of several occurrences of unintended
>>> airbag deployment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can't argue with that.
>
>
> Oh, come on, I'm sure you can! :-)

That was cold! 8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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Matt Whiting wrote:

> Bill Putney wrote:
>
>> Matt Whiting wrote:

>>> I'm more worried about an inadvertant air bag deployment than I am
>>> about my gas tank exploding. The former is much more likely than
>>> that latter and I've heard of several occurrences of unintended
>>> airbag deployment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can't argue with that.
>
>
> Oh, come on, I'm sure you can! :-)

That was cold! 8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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