LA 318 cooling prob has me fretting

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:04:29 -0500, Steve > wrote:

>The fact that it CAN pull air in past a seal at all worries me- it would
>seem to indicate that the cooling system is never pressurizing, or is
>pressurizing late. <snip>

Oh, it pressurized alright...trust me...especially after sucking some
air in there and then warming up. Gets right up to 12 lbs in a hurry.

>Are you running a "partial pressure" type rad cap
>(the kind where the metal disk in the center of the gasket dangles
>freely) or a full-pressure cap (where the metal disk has a spring to
>keep it tight)? Older Chrysler service manuals recommend a
>partial-pressure cap, but I've found that (at least in my climate-
>central Texas) a full-pressure cap is the only way to go. With a partial
>pressure cap, I steadily lose coolant and often the cars will "burp"
>coolant out the overflow tube when you shut them down hot. Never happens
>with a full-pressure cap. <snip>

True. The Stant is a partial pressure cap, but they do make a full
pressure version. If this continues, I'll try one. I never had a
problem with the partial pressure cap prior to this incident.'

Although the plugged weep hole did slow down the sucking of air into
the pump, it didn't stop it completely, as tugging on the "safety"
vent lever proved after doing some errands...there was SOME air (NOT
steam) in there, for certain, but not nearly as much, and there wasn't
enough air in the system to prevent the heater from getting hot water.
Maybe pump changeout tomorrow...THEN we'll know more.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:04:29 -0700, OldeChrysler
> wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:04:29 -0500, Steve > wrote:
>
>>The fact that it CAN pull air in past a seal at all worries me- it would
>>seem to indicate that the cooling system is never pressurizing, or is
>>pressurizing late. <snip>

Front end came off this afternoon, and the "el cheapo" pump was
installed properly...but a cheapo. I'm suspicious of the lip seal
indeed, as it appears to be cocked somewhat. It's a crappy little
affair compaired to the Cardone rebuild I got. Interesting also is
that the "el cheapo" has 7 small vanes that are set too shallow, while
the Cardone pump has 6 big vanes that go all the way back to the end
of the shaft. The lip seal arrangement also looked a LOT beefier on
the Cardone; the "el cheapo" spring for the lip seal was so weak, I
could press it down with my finger easily. Also, there were tell-tale
signs of leakage around the weep hole once I got the pump off...even
more evidence of early seal failure. The "el cheapo" is only two
years old.

The front cover, amazingly, shows no real signs of corrosion at all,
but I'm going to ScotchBrite the surface to take a better look, just
to be sure.

Looks like I found the problem, but won't know until I make everything
"pretty" (I'm nuts about keeping things clean and painted) and
properly installed and then do a test run. But, it wouldn't surprise
me. I lot of service station operators are using bottom-barrel parts
suppliers like Poop Boys and AutoBone of late to save money, and this
may be an example. From the looks of things, I'd recommend this
A-1/Cardone rebuild to any pro. They have a couple of plants in
Pennsylvania and customer service/shipping is lightning fast, even
through a reseller. They also have smog pumps...something I may have
to do as well, since I note only two of the three vanes in mine are
really moving a lot of air! Another thing to inspect/fix/replace.

Oh the joy of old cars. Keeps guys like me out of trouble with the
local girls, though! Thanks to Steve for all his helpful tips.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:27:27 -0700, OldeChrysler
> wrote:

>Front end came off this afternoon, <snip>

....and is now back together and cooling as new! I just backflushed
the radiator core, as it was flowing too well to really indicate a
rodding, and there wasn't much header scale in the top tank.

Cause: Defective lip seal in cheaply rebuilt water pump.

Thanks to all for their ideas.

DESERTBOB (not its real name) is a troll.
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DeserTBoB wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:27:27 -0700, OldeChrysler
> > wrote:
>
> >Front end came off this afternoon, <snip>
>
> ...and is now back together and cooling as new! I just backflushed
> the radiator core, as it was flowing too well to really indicate a
> rodding, and there wasn't much header scale in the top tank.
>
> Cause: Defective lip seal in cheaply rebuilt water pump.
>
> Thanks to all for their ideas.

Is the Cardonne only available by mail, or are they sold by any
retailers? Do you have any experience with water pumps sold by NAPA?
Just curious.

-KM

On 26 Aug 2006 18:27:27 -0700, "
> wrote:

>Is the Cardonne only available by mail, or are they sold by any
>retailers? Do you have any experience with water pumps sold by NAPA?
>Just curious. <snip>

A-1/Cardone is a rebuilder/manufacturer. They do not sell direct, but
their porducts are available at retailers, including rockauto.com,
probably one of the better online parts stores. Most of their
retailing is on the east coast, however, but their rebuild quality is
excellent from what I've seen.

I've never had many problems with NAPA parts, as a rule, and they're
always preferrable over "bonehead" retailers like Poop Boys and
AutoBone. It's best to avoid those two places in particular...bad
parts, worse counter help, sneaky corporate pricing games. Most all
NAPA stores I've ever dealt with (for 30+ years) are pretty good,
although I notice lately that they're sort of "morphing" in to a
better Poop Boys, as they're feeling the competition.

For locally bought parts, I still trade with local independents. The
big chain stores aren't even good for simple items like oil and
filters anymore. AutoBone doesn't even carry straight weight oil
anymore from the big producers, only their house brand garbage oil!
Reason? More profit mark-up in "cachet" multi-weights, especially the
syns and syn blends. Do some pricing...AutoBone is usually more
expensive on these items than most others.

Another bone to pick with the big chains...poor quality belts and
hoses. AutoBone carries Mexican belts and molded hoses with
predictably poor quality. PoopBoys seems more interested in selling
illegal "pocket bikes," go-karts, refrigerators and DVD players than
auto parts. Shame, since I remember when the old, pre-corporate Pep
Boys was a pretty decent and cheap place for old car fans to get
stuff. Now, if your car is more than 10 years old, forget it....they
won't carry it at all. Their counter help is de rigeur for corporate
retailers these days...meaning minimum wage, off-the-street dummies.
Most wouldn't know the business end of a wrench from a ball peen!

On 26 Aug 2006 07:45:02 -0700, "DesertBob Jr."
> wrote:

>DESERTBOB (not its real name) is a troll. <snip>

See alt.collecting.8-track-tapes for the skinny on this troll. He's
trying to "trollshift," a trick he thinks that works, which he got off
of flayme.com. His real name is Charles M. Nudo, Jr., of Drums, PA, a
well known eBay fraudster and crook as 66fourdoor.

Kill file? YES! But beware...he used to use at least 14 different
pseudonyms over the years, but thanks to having many accounts banned
for bad behavior, is now down to about 3 or 4.

DESERTBOB aka OLDECHRYSLER aka OLDIECHRYSLER (not its real name) is a
troll.
It regularly frequents at least twenty news groups,
including many rabid/sex/racist groups.
Normally, it starts off with reasonable, even witty lines,
but rapidly drifts into lies, abuse and stupidity.
Check its details at Google Groups at these URL's- it now is using (2)
Google accounts to answer its own posts here.

http://groups.google.com/groups/prof...fw84ImzlcMxDpg

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It is a sad creature, deserving of pity, not anger.
Any direct response simply feeds it,
but it will go away if you ignore it.

This troll actually HATES American cars, despises the Big Three USA
automakers, and its main car is a 1979 Honda. Read its posting history
as "DeserTBob" to see volumes of anti-American rhetoric- and also its
constant spam and trolling- it has shifted itself from the
alt.collecting.8track group to your Chrysler group. To see this trolls
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http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...did=303 21125

On 27 Aug 2006 12:51:02 -0700, "duty-honor-country"
> wrote:

>DESERTBOB aka OLDECHRYSLER aka OLDIECHRYSLER (not its real name) is a
>troll.
>It regularly frequents at least twenty news groups, <snip>

Lie. He's "trollshifting"...or at least trying to do so. See him get
outed as a Usenet moron (on Goo Goo Groopz...where else?) in
alt.collecting.8-track-tapes. He's also a known criminal who uses
extortion and bribes to get "good" feedback on eBay as 66fourdoor.

Solution: Kill File

OldieChrysler wrote:
> 1986 LA roller cam 318 in an M-body, 85K, mysteriously started sucking
> air (or exhaust gas) into the cooling system, causing odd overheating
> symptoms. Off came the whole top end, with judicious inspection of
> the heads as well as deck and head surface flatness. All looked well,
> and the valves were in pristine shape. After complete cleanup, new
> Fel-Pro gasket set (along with the "one size fits all LAs" head gasket
> that robs you of 5 lbs of compression!), figuring it was a pinhole
> leak in one of the head gaskets. Back together, with the freshly
> kitted carb, new RN12YCs, new wires/cap/rotor, new O2 sensor and
> meticulous reassembly, the old LA ran SO smoothly and quietly it was
> eerie. However, here comes the bubbles...again! Prior to the top end
> job, I had fed 125 lb. air to each cylinder, and never did get
> positive sighting of bubbles in the top tank of the radiator. But, a
> firing cylinder under load, even in a low compression engine like
> this, produces a lot more than 125 lbs. on the cylinder walls.
>
> I can only think of two possibilities...lip seal in the water pump is
> sucking in air, or...there's a pinhole in one of the cylinder walls
> that's allowing exhaust gas to pass, but not water to pass the other
> way. While glaze busting the cylinders, there WAS an odd little rust
> spot in #5 that I attributed to water getting in there during head
> removal (don't you LOVE they way they hid those drain plugs behind the
> new style motor mounts????), but it went away with a single pass of
> the hone, and nothing looked unusual. However, this engine, while in
> great condition overall (.0002-3 taper in all cyls...barely a ring
> mark to be seen) the original owner (the know-it-all father-in-law)
> didn't seem to believe that you needed to change antifreeze regularly.
> Thus, the jackets were FULL of rust flakes, necessitating me taking a
> pressure washer nozzle down into the block to clean it up. After the
> pressure washer treatment, the walls of the water jackets were grey
> iron with ocassional dark rust spots here and there. However, if by
> doing this, I knocked all the rust loose, the problem should've gotten
> worse, and it didn't. Actually, it improved...slightly...but it is
> still there.
>
> Prior to this, this engine would NEVER get more than 5° above
> thermostat in any condition except pulling a grade when 110° out with
> the AC on. Now, it gets up to 210° just putting around town at 45
> MPH.
>
> Anyone heard of any bad block castings on this vintage LA engine?
> Also, anyone had a water pump do exactly what this may be doing? No
> bearing noise, and the weep hole is clean, but it's a two year old
> "rebuild" (the original blew the seal right out the nose on a trip to
> Vegas on the hottest day of the year).
>
> The car, an '86 M-body 5th, is a cream puff, and I've grown to love
> it, even with its various faults. Strengths: comfy "rich Corinthean
> leather" seating all around; low noise level; excellent handling;
> excellent AC; straightforward, honest design, no engineering
> "gotchas," and it has Lee Iacocca in the trunk under the spare cover.
> (Ricardo Montalban is a no-show.) Weaknesses: Choppy ride at times;
> A-904 TF's lockup converter locks up at 36 MPH in 3rd gear...no matter
> WHAT the load...no part throttle unlock...have to downshift to second
> to knock it off; the usual headliner replacement (normal in any car
> this old); jiggly front sheet metal on rough roads; rather ungainly
> styling; and the standard MoPar feature...HARD to work on in places,
> something I think that's been a MoPar standard since the '60s. You
> need every wiggle and U-joint extension you may have in your
> rollaround, but if you're smart, everything comes apart fine.
>
> Hate to trash this car for a porous cylinder wall. My wife loves it,
> too (it was her mom's when new) and it hasn't even hit 100K yet, and
> the paint and interior are still quite nice and draw compliments
> wherever we go.
>
> Any opinions?
>
> Caveat: If you have an old engine with low mileage where the original
> owner ran long oil change intervals with mediocre oil, and you see
> crusty sludge on the rockers (or wherever,) do yourself a
> favor....strip the top end, clean it out BEFORE switching to
> synthetic. I didn't, thinking the syn would sort of erode the
> carbonized oil and slowly send it to the filter. I got away with it,
> but after my clean up after dear Dad-In-Law, I'd never chance it
> again. The amount of crap loosened up and laying in the pan was a bit
> scary. Oddly enough, the pickup screen was clean, but every oil
> change, that filter (Fram Double Guard) was HEAVY. I changed out the
> oil pump just to feel safe, and later disassembly of the original
> proved me right...there was a LOT of abrasive wear in it.



BICYCLE (not its real name) is a troll.
It regularly frequents at least twenty news groups,
including many rabid/sex/racist groups.
Normally, it starts off with reasonable, even witty lines,
but rapidly drifts into lies, abuse and stupidity.
Check its details at Google Groups at this URLs- it has recently been
"branded" as a troll with its previous username, and has just created a
new Google Groups name to post here as "OldeChrysler"- read its post
history at these links for an eye-opening expose'- if you look at the
email addresses for each epiphany will strike- check its recent posts
on alt.collecting.8tracktapes where it shows its true nature.

http://groups.google.com/groups/prof...n7nbF1Te82ZIng

http://groups.google.com/groups/prof...fw84ImzlcMxDpg

It is a sad creature, deserving of pity, not anger.
Any direct response simply feeds it,
but it will go away if you ignore it.