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GTL - StarForce Issues?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 27th 06, 10:11 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
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Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

Now I definitely don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to get
some 'informed' details on the StarForce copy protection system that resides
on the GT Legends sim.
I have just recently returned to motor racing sims on the PC, after a 3
year hiatus. I have purchased GTL and RBR due to the rave reviews on RAS. I
am a little tentative about installing GTL on my new PC due to the 'heated
discussions' that persist on RAS about this controversial CP system.
What are the exact issues that some people seem to have with games with
StarForce? Approximately what percentage of people are having these
problems? I get the impression that SF can cause some hardware problems??
How can software cause problems with hardware?
I truly hope this doesn't start more flaming in this newsgroup. I just
wish to understand the risks involved in installing (and playing) GTL.
TIA.

--

RocketMan


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  #2  
Old April 27th 06, 10:54 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
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Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post
links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info:

1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears
like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the
system that could potentially be exploited by malicious software. This
has been noted with multiple copy protection/DRM packages. So far
no-one has demonstrated or seen an exploit 'in the wild' AFAIK, but
that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Note that this is different from
the poorly-written Sony rookit. The Sony DRM package created a *huge*
security hole by creating a directory that was completely hidden from
normal system operations. A malicious program could drop files in the
same dir and there would be almost no way to detect it. The Sony
rookit also created a device chain that could bluscreen your PC if the
DRM driver was disabled.

2) Dead DVD writers. This appears to be the most common complaint.
How truly frequent this occurs is unknown (some fraction is probably
conicidental normal hardware failure), but some reasonably respected
netizens have posted that they have had DVD writers crap out after
loading SF-protected games. The problem is partly Microsoft's - what
appears to be the problem is the "auto-stepdown" function of IDE
drivers in WinXP. What happens is WinXP will automatically slow down
drive access as it encounters read errors on IDE devices, starting with
the Ultra-DMA modes, slowing all the way down to PIO modes. IMHO this
was one of those stupid "Microsoft knows better than you" decisions -
the OS never reports an error to the user or allows the behavior to be
changed (although XP SP2 apparently slows the step-down counter so it
is less likely to occur). I have personally experienced this in the
early days of XP (not related to Starforce). What seems to kill some
DVD writers is they are not designed to operate in PIO modes, and the
step down to PIO permanently damages the drives. Starforce was stupid
here in that they could have written the virtual driver as a SCSI
device (like Alcohol 120%'s drives) and avoided this problem
completely.

3) Starforce's business practices - Instead of recognizing there might
be a problem and trying to get info from users to fix it, they called
anyone who reported problems hackers/pirates/script kiddies. They
setup a ridiculous contest where they would pay anyone $10000 who could
come to Russia (on thier own dime) and reproduce the problem on
Starforce's own hardware. When nobody took them up on such a stupid
offer they proclaimed that it meant there was no problem. They have
also done such nasty things as posting links on thier own forums to
pirated software (Gal Civ II, I think).

Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use
for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC.
3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business,
but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my
nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the
developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the
publishers.

Hope I got all that right!
Kendt

  #3  
Old April 28th 06, 01:04 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?


" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post
> links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info:
>
> 1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears
> like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the


( Snip a bunch of good stuff)

> Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use
> for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC.
> 3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business,
> but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my
> nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the
> developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the
> publishers.
>
> Hope I got all that right!
> Kendt


This has to one of the most reasoned and informed postings on this all too
inflammatory subject that I have seen on RAS. It pretty much sums up the
problem nicely
Bravo

Dave


  #4  
Old April 28th 06, 09:32 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

Thanks very much for the info.
This may be a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway! Is there the
possibility that SF will affect (damage?) all DVD drives in the PC, or just
the drive that it is installed from? My PC has two DVD burners - one for
general use (the DVD drive I wanted was out of stock, and the DVD burner was
only $20 more), and one dedicated to DVD burning. Is it possible that if I
have any problems it will only affect the DVD burner I use for installing
programs?
If I am forced to replace a damaged DVD drive, will StarForce also damage
the replacement?
Will SF have any effect on my burning software, i.e. stop it from working?
Apologies if these are stupid questions.
Thanks again.

--

RocketMan
" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post
> links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info:
>
> 1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears
> like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the
> system that could potentially be exploited by malicious software. This
> has been noted with multiple copy protection/DRM packages. So far
> no-one has demonstrated or seen an exploit 'in the wild' AFAIK, but
> that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Note that this is different from
> the poorly-written Sony rookit. The Sony DRM package created a *huge*
> security hole by creating a directory that was completely hidden from
> normal system operations. A malicious program could drop files in the
> same dir and there would be almost no way to detect it. The Sony
> rookit also created a device chain that could bluscreen your PC if the
> DRM driver was disabled.
>
> 2) Dead DVD writers. This appears to be the most common complaint.
> How truly frequent this occurs is unknown (some fraction is probably
> conicidental normal hardware failure), but some reasonably respected
> netizens have posted that they have had DVD writers crap out after
> loading SF-protected games. The problem is partly Microsoft's - what
> appears to be the problem is the "auto-stepdown" function of IDE
> drivers in WinXP. What happens is WinXP will automatically slow down
> drive access as it encounters read errors on IDE devices, starting with
> the Ultra-DMA modes, slowing all the way down to PIO modes. IMHO this
> was one of those stupid "Microsoft knows better than you" decisions -
> the OS never reports an error to the user or allows the behavior to be
> changed (although XP SP2 apparently slows the step-down counter so it
> is less likely to occur). I have personally experienced this in the
> early days of XP (not related to Starforce). What seems to kill some
> DVD writers is they are not designed to operate in PIO modes, and the
> step down to PIO permanently damages the drives. Starforce was stupid
> here in that they could have written the virtual driver as a SCSI
> device (like Alcohol 120%'s drives) and avoided this problem
> completely.
>
> 3) Starforce's business practices - Instead of recognizing there might
> be a problem and trying to get info from users to fix it, they called
> anyone who reported problems hackers/pirates/script kiddies. They
> setup a ridiculous contest where they would pay anyone $10000 who could
> come to Russia (on thier own dime) and reproduce the problem on
> Starforce's own hardware. When nobody took them up on such a stupid
> offer they proclaimed that it meant there was no problem. They have
> also done such nasty things as posting links on thier own forums to
> pirated software (Gal Civ II, I think).
>
> Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use
> for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC.
> 3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business,
> but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my
> nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the
> developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the
> publishers.
>
> Hope I got all that right!
> Kendt
>



  #5  
Old April 28th 06, 01:12 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

I would think that it only affects the drive used to install the game,
and where it reads the DVD during the initial disk check (this is where
the problem occurs when StarForce is checking the presence of the
disk).
So do the install from the disposable DVD drive .

Kendt

  #6  
Old April 28th 06, 04:56 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

Reportedly the drives that died were DVD ***Burners**** , RIGHT???? I mean
I hadn't read any DVD player only drives dying?

the drives are cheap and easy, hell before I got GTL (meaning before I had
starforce) I lost 2 CD drives in one year, (only raced Papy games and some
MS games).

"RocketMan" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks very much for the info.
> This may be a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway! Is there the
> possibility that SF will affect (damage?) all DVD drives in the PC, or
> just the drive that it is installed from? My PC has two DVD burners - one
> for general use (the DVD drive I wanted was out of stock, and the DVD
> burner was only $20 more), and one dedicated to DVD burning. Is it
> possible that if I have any problems it will only affect the DVD burner I
> use for installing programs?
> If I am forced to replace a damaged DVD drive, will StarForce also damage
> the replacement?
> Will SF have any effect on my burning software, i.e. stop it from
> working?
> Apologies if these are stupid questions.
> Thanks again.
>
> --
>
> RocketMan
> " > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post
>> links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info:
>>
>> 1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears
>> like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the
>> system that could potentially be exploited by malicious software. This
>> has been noted with multiple copy protection/DRM packages. So far
>> no-one has demonstrated or seen an exploit 'in the wild' AFAIK, but
>> that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Note that this is different from
>> the poorly-written Sony rookit. The Sony DRM package created a *huge*
>> security hole by creating a directory that was completely hidden from
>> normal system operations. A malicious program could drop files in the
>> same dir and there would be almost no way to detect it. The Sony
>> rookit also created a device chain that could bluscreen your PC if the
>> DRM driver was disabled.
>>
>> 2) Dead DVD writers. This appears to be the most common complaint.
>> How truly frequent this occurs is unknown (some fraction is probably
>> conicidental normal hardware failure), but some reasonably respected
>> netizens have posted that they have had DVD writers crap out after
>> loading SF-protected games. The problem is partly Microsoft's - what
>> appears to be the problem is the "auto-stepdown" function of IDE
>> drivers in WinXP. What happens is WinXP will automatically slow down
>> drive access as it encounters read errors on IDE devices, starting with
>> the Ultra-DMA modes, slowing all the way down to PIO modes. IMHO this
>> was one of those stupid "Microsoft knows better than you" decisions -
>> the OS never reports an error to the user or allows the behavior to be
>> changed (although XP SP2 apparently slows the step-down counter so it
>> is less likely to occur). I have personally experienced this in the
>> early days of XP (not related to Starforce). What seems to kill some
>> DVD writers is they are not designed to operate in PIO modes, and the
>> step down to PIO permanently damages the drives. Starforce was stupid
>> here in that they could have written the virtual driver as a SCSI
>> device (like Alcohol 120%'s drives) and avoided this problem
>> completely.
>>
>> 3) Starforce's business practices - Instead of recognizing there might
>> be a problem and trying to get info from users to fix it, they called
>> anyone who reported problems hackers/pirates/script kiddies. They
>> setup a ridiculous contest where they would pay anyone $10000 who could
>> come to Russia (on thier own dime) and reproduce the problem on
>> Starforce's own hardware. When nobody took them up on such a stupid
>> offer they proclaimed that it meant there was no problem. They have
>> also done such nasty things as posting links on thier own forums to
>> pirated software (Gal Civ II, I think).
>>
>> Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use
>> for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC.
>> 3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business,
>> but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my
>> nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the
>> developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the
>> publishers.
>>
>> Hope I got all that right!
>> Kendt
>>

>
>



  #7  
Old April 29th 06, 11:38 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

I installed GTL, and immediently encounterd a BSOD (Blue screen crash). I
was able to get around this by installing a patch from the Internet.

No production software should have such a major bug as to consistantly and
immediately introduce a BSOD. Turning rant mode off, my system has been fine
since I patched it.

Tim


  #8  
Old May 1st 06, 07:50 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
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Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

I honestly think Starforce is on it's last leg. Even the manufacturers are
bitching about it

This has GOT to be increasing their support calls in a major way.

-Larry

"Tim Epstein" > wrote in message
. uk...
>I installed GTL, and immediently encounterd a BSOD (Blue screen crash). I
>was able to get around this by installing a patch from the Internet.
>
> No production software should have such a major bug as to consistantly and
> immediately introduce a BSOD. Turning rant mode off, my system has been
> fine since I patched it.
>
> Tim
>
>



  #9  
Old May 2nd 06, 03:41 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

"Larry" > wrote in news:lMs5g.38755$_z2.7508@dukeread02:

> I honestly think Starforce is on it's last leg. Even the
> manufacturers are bitching about it
>
> This has GOT to be increasing their support calls in a major way.
>
> -Larry
>

Does this sound like a Starforce issue? :

I have had GTR on since it's USA release and it's fully patched. I also
have a DVD recorder that uses Nero Software. Nero worked fine in the past.
But after not using it for some time, I have recently tried to back up all
my rFactor tracks and run into some complications. If I use the Nero
StartSmart icon, my system goes into some sort of shutdown, IMMEADIATELY.
The system leds are still lit but the screen goes black and in a very short
time the monitor shuts down. No set of key presses that I have tried can
break this odd lockup.
I have to hit the Reset or Power Off button on the box to reboot and
reload windows(SP Pro SP2) If I choose the start menu for the Nero
SmartStart program(kinda like a Nero menu system for all the various Nero
utilities) that too will STOP My system cold. And another reboot.
However, if I choose an individual Nero program like Nero Express, THEN
and ONLY THEN can I run the program and burn a data disc.

Starforce? or just a klutzed up system?

dave henrie
  #10  
Old May 2nd 06, 03:38 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default GTL - StarForce Issues?

I guess it's possible, but I'm really not sure. I've avoided the issue by
avoiding the publishers that use it.

There is a TON of info that's googleable though.

-Larry

"Dave Henrie" > wrote in message
. 97.136...
> "Larry" > wrote in news:lMs5g.38755$_z2.7508@dukeread02:


> Does this sound like a Starforce issue? :
>
> I have had GTR on since it's USA release and it's fully patched. I also
> have a DVD recorder that uses Nero Software. Nero worked fine in the
> past.
> But after not using it for some time, I have recently tried to back up
> all
> my rFactor tracks and run into some complications. If I use the Nero
> StartSmart icon, my system goes into some sort of shutdown, IMMEADIATELY.
> The system leds are still lit but the screen goes black and in a very
> short
> time the monitor shuts down. No set of key presses that I have tried can
> break this odd lockup.
> I have to hit the Reset or Power Off button on the box to reboot and
> reload windows(SP Pro SP2) If I choose the start menu for the Nero
> SmartStart program(kinda like a Nero menu system for all the various Nero
> utilities) that too will STOP My system cold. And another reboot.
> However, if I choose an individual Nero program like Nero Express, THEN
> and ONLY THEN can I run the program and burn a data disc.
>
> Starforce? or just a klutzed up system?
>
> dave henrie



 




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