Had an accident in my Miata. Selling it on Ebay if anyone is interested.

Oh come on you guys ! What does this have to do with selling a Miata on
Ebay ?????

People can go on & on with statistics for ever and ever !!!!! No one
person will win because they always bring in a condition that the other
one did not figure in. When you are dead, you are dead and not too many
people will give a crap. You will just be another statistic to add to te
arguement.

Give it up and let this poor guy sell his stuff :-)

Bruce RED '91

The training (driving test) has not changed much at all over the past few
years, as I mentioned before it is my opinion that speed does not on its own
kill, bad driving and speed in inappropriate areas kills, driver training
does help, but a well trained driver can still drive bad.

Do you mean the table that says "na" for nearly half the countries
You stated that
"UK is a small country with low speed roads, few miles driven and limited
trucking"
Yet there is no data presented on the table that gives any impression at all
of the average miles travelled in the UK!!!

What do you mean by Limited trucking?
> Large trucks hauling double trailers with sleepy drivers who've been going
> for 12 hours on caffeine and pills?

We have double trailers and sleepy drivers in the UK.
In the UK all trucks are installed with tachographs which documents among
other things the hours the driver has spent moving, although drivers do
exceed the times stated by law, it is from my experience that this does not
happed to often, of course there are no tachographs in cars, and there are
many ways to work around this law.

Your sweeping statement of "Small countries = low speeds" is firstly
dramatically incorrect and secondly arrogant in its response, you have every
right to say what ever you want, but you cannot expect to say such rubbish
without someone pointing out how very wrong you are, what do you think, that
the UK is so small we cannot get enough momentum up to get our cars into top
gear????


Cheers Mark



"Generic" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "gixer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Sorry guys I just have to rant again.
>>
>> > Small countries = low speeds.
>> I will take a wild guess that you have not travelled much then mate,
>
> Well yes, I have.
>
>> What complete and utter rubbish, granted the UK has grown more speed
> camera
>> infested over the past 5 years or so, but funnily enough even with
> thousands
>> more speed cameras the death rates have gone up.
>
> Then *training* per se is not having much effect???? That say's a 3rd
> factor is involved.
>
>> And where did you pluck the assumption that people in the UK drive few
>> miles?
>
> FROM THE TABLE THAT PROVIDES THE DEATH RATES PER MILES DRIVEN.
>
> The US has a lot of deaths but a very low deaths per mile driven,
> therefore
> they must drive many more miles to produce the number of deaths.
>
>> Limited trucking?
>
> Large trucks hauling double trailers with sleepy drivers who've been going
> for 12 hours on caffeine and pills?
>
> -John
>
>

No it does not,
Firstly Joe E's scratch does unless he is extremely unlucky result in death.
Secondly the figures are an average, Joe A could drive 100k without a crash,
but Joe A has a smash every 300 miles, there is no evidence to suggest that
high mileage drivers bring down the death per mile rate, as I have mentioned
many times before bad drivers cause so called "accidents" it is not mileage
specific.

Cheers Mark.



"Generic" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "gixer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> But then again someone that drives a lot usually becomes a better driver,
>> just look outside your local school during collection time, all the 4x4's
> 2
>> years old with 5k on the clock, yet show me one without a dent.
>
> Joe E drives 3 blocks to the market and gets home without a scratch.
> Joe A drives 300 miles and gets into an accident.
>
> That's what deaths per miles driven says.
>
> -John
>
>

Here is 1 statistic 100% of the human population will die,
At the end of the day how you die is not in your control (suicide the
obvious exception) its how you live that live that really matters,
I would prefer to take a bigger percentage risk and drive a car that makes
me happy rather than, drive around in a tank.
Even if you drove a tank there is no guarantees in life you could still have
a "accident" at work.



"Generic" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> >The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths
> per
>> >population versus 15 in the US.
>>
>> Seems to make my point exactly. *You* might not mind having three
>> times the chance of dying before you time, but I and other people do.
>
> As I said in another reply.
>
> Driver E goes 3 blocks.
> Driver A goes 300 miles.
>
> If Driver A lives a lifestyle where he goes 3 blocks then his personal
> lifetime risk will be lower.
>
>> I can exaggerate the numbers to make this clear. Suppose
>> in the US I have to drive 100,000 mi a year to work and have a
>> 50% chance of dying doing it. While in the UK I have to drive
>> 10 miles for a 0.005% chance of dying.
>
>> Should I be equally concerned, as you suggest, since the deaths
>> per mile is the same? Few would agree with you. Most would
>> prefer the 0.005% chance of dying above the 50%.
>
> Well, that's the reality of the situation, isn't it? Every minute in
> motion
> presents a risk greater than zero. Driving less is safer in all countries
> and at all times.
>
> Put it this way.
>
> Driver 1 in the UK drives 100 miles per year at 0.005% risk.
> Driver 2 in the UK drives 10,000 miles per year at 0.005% risk.
>
> Driver 2 is quite obviously more likely to die from driving.
>
>> Suppose the number of dangerous situations encountered in the
>> 10 UK miles is the same as in the 100,000 US miles because of
>> the 10,000 times greater density of the UK.
>
> Most people in the US live in fairly dense urban areas.
>
>>Should I wonder
>> about the competency of me as a US driver, if I have a 10,000
>> times larger chance of killing myself in an dangerous situation
>> than the driver in the UK? Or should I do as you do and say:
>> "Not to worry, deaths per mile are the same, so no further
>> drivers education is needed."?
>
> Well yes, you shouldn't worry more about it.
>
>> In short, while as an aerospace engineer, I love to quote
>> accidents per passenger mile to show aviation is safer than
>> driving, that does not mean I believe that sort of thing
>> when my own safety is concerned.
>
> But there's no difference in principle!
>
>> The greater expanse of the US suggests longer trips, not
>> more trips for the increased mileage. Nor would more trips
>> directly imply an increase in challenge on drivers' skills.
>> There is still the larger available space.
>
> There are many, many interacting factors. Most people in the US live in
> urban areas. From what I recall (memory) the most fatally dangerous
> locations are rural intersections with stop signs.
>
>> >Wouldn't you EXPECT truck drivers to have a higher death rate than
> average
>> >drivers?
>
>> Obviously, it would have been more decisive if you had given us
>> international comparisons of nonprofessional traffic accidents
>> only. But you did not, probably since there are no such data
>> from most countries. I have to draw conclusions on what I
>> have available, and those indicate that there is a real problem
>> in the US, possibly with drivers' skills.
>
> So you'll not research it for yourself?
>
>> The new data above are relatively useless for the issues at hand,
>> since they are per occupation, not per mile.
>
> Transportation workers, who spend the greatest amount of time on the road,
> get killed the most. Deaths per miles driven is a central issue. The
> expansive size of the US requires more time one the road.
>
>> Presumably, the drivers of semi trucks have more skills, and
>> certainly more experience, hence a lower accident rate *per mile*.
>
> Not necessarily. They are known to work double shifts, they are known to
> take drugs to work longer hours. They can be very aggressive trying to
> make
> a deadline.
>
>> Hence, if the fraction of professional miles driven in the US is
>> greater than in the UK as you seem to suggest, it would
>> decrease accidents per mile, making accidents per mile for
>> nonprofessional drivers even greater.
>
> Not at all. Amateurs may stop driving before they tire out. They may not
> get
> as cocky. There's no reason to presume your view is correct.
>
>> shows they are a small part of the accidents anyway. And is driving
>> dangerous top heavy pick-ups itself not an indication of lack
>> of drivers education?
>
> Well...is it the driver or the tools? Classic Jeeps were known for tipping
> over but they are built to go down narrow dirt roads. Same with the
> near-recall of the Ford Bronco II in the 80s. It rolled a lot and rolled
> easily, but that's the trade off of having an off-road capable vehicle.
>
>> >See above. When you look at death per hour of driving (original links)
> the
>> >US is very low and this suggests that US drivers are *more* safe in
>> >terms
> of
>> >hours spent behind the wheel.
>>
>> In *your* artificial terms of per hours spend or per mile, sure. In real
>> life terms of how likely they are too die, US drivers are three times
>> worse as the UK and Holland. I would call a factor 3 a big difference.
>
> See above. Driver one in Holland travels 1,000 miles by car in his
> lifetime.
> Driver two in Holland travels 1,000,000 miles by car in his lifetime.
> Which
> one will be more likey to die in a traffic accident?
>
> Deaths per mile driven is the central issue.
>
>> And your new data suggesting that much of all those miles driven that
>> depress the US numbers so much are not just due to greater expanse,
>> but also due to a greater fraction of miles driven by more competent
>> and experienced professional drivers, makes the indications that there
>> is something very wrong with nonprofessional US drivers even stronger.
>
> No. There are a million alternative explanations for that. See above. The
> least complicated interpretation is that more time driving = more
> accidents.
>
> -John
>
>

"Generic" > wrote:

>
>"Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message
.. .
>>> >The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths
>per
>> >population versus 15 in the US.
>>
>> Seems to make my point exactly. *You* might not mind having three
>> times the chance of dying before you time, but I and other people do.
>
>As I said in another reply.
>
>Driver E goes 3 blocks.
>Driver A goes 300 miles.
>
>If Driver A lives a lifestyle where he goes 3 blocks then his personal
>lifetime risk will be lower.
>
>> I can exaggerate the numbers to make this clear. Suppose
>> in the US I have to drive 100,000 mi a year to work and have a
>> 50% chance of dying doing it. While in the UK I have to drive
>> 10 miles for a 0.005% chance of dying.
>
>> Should I be equally concerned, as you suggest, since the deaths
>> per mile is the same? Few would agree with you. Most would
>> prefer the 0.005% chance of dying above the 50%.
>
>Well, that's the reality of the situation, isn't it? Every minute in motion
>presents a risk greater than zero. Driving less is safer in all countries
>and at all times.
>
>Put it this way.
>
>Driver 1 in the UK drives 100 miles per year at 0.005% risk.
>Driver 2 in the UK drives 10,000 miles per year at 0.005% risk.

Unfortunately, we were not discussing comparative death rates
between one class of UK drivers versus another. I analyzed
the issue at hand, you make one up.

>Driver 2 is quite obviously more likely to die from driving.
>
>> Suppose the number of dangerous situations encountered in the
>> 10 UK miles is the same as in the 100,000 US miles because of
>> the 10,000 times greater density of the UK.
>
>Most people in the US live in fairly dense urban areas.
>
>>Should I wonder
>> about the competency of me as a US driver, if I have a 10,000
>> times larger chance of killing myself in an dangerous situation
>> than the driver in the UK? Or should I do as you do and say:
>> "Not to worry, deaths per mile are the same, so no further
>> drivers education is needed."?
>
>Well yes, you shouldn't worry more about it.

I am speechless.

>> In short, while as an aerospace engineer, I love to quote
>> accidents per passenger mile to show aviation is safer than
>> driving, that does not mean I believe that sort of thing
>> when my own safety is concerned.
>
>But there's no difference in principle!
>
>> The greater expanse of the US suggests longer trips, not
>> more trips for the increased mileage. Nor would more trips
>> directly imply an increase in challenge on drivers' skills.
>> There is still the larger available space.
>
>There are many, many interacting factors. Most people in the US live in
>urban areas. From what I recall (memory) the most fatally dangerous
>locations are rural intersections with stop signs.
>
>> >Wouldn't you EXPECT truck drivers to have a higher death rate than
>average
>> >drivers?
>
>> Obviously, it would have been more decisive if you had given us
>> international comparisons of nonprofessional traffic accidents
>> only. But you did not, probably since there are no such data
>> from most countries. I have to draw conclusions on what I
>> have available, and those indicate that there is a real problem
>> in the US, possibly with drivers' skills.
>
>So you'll not research it for yourself?

Are you kidding or serious? Especially now that Bruce is getting
restless?

>> The new data above are relatively useless for the issues at hand,
>> since they are per occupation, not per mile.
>
>Transportation workers, who spend the greatest amount of time on the road,
>get killed the most. Deaths per miles driven is a central issue. The
>expansive size of the US requires more time one the road.
>
>> Presumably, the drivers of semi trucks have more skills, and
>> certainly more experience, hence a lower accident rate *per mile*.
>
>Not necessarily. They are known to work double shifts, they are known to
>take drugs to work longer hours. They can be very aggressive trying to make
>a deadline.

There are obviously many factors involved. I can make up hundreds
like this for Dutch drivers too. However, I base my beliefs on
facts, I do not go hunting for "factoids" that support my preexisting
views. Two facts are that drivers' education in the US is
a joke and US drivers die at three times the rate of Dutch ones
per 100,000. These are facts that count for me. You can keep
chasing elusive ghosts if you must.

>> Hence, if the fraction of professional miles driven in the US is
>> greater than in the UK as you seem to suggest, it would
>> decrease accidents per mile, making accidents per mile for
>> nonprofessional drivers even greater.
>
>Not at all. Amateurs may stop driving before they tire out. They may not get
>as cocky. There's no reason to presume your view is correct.

There is no proof. However, I consider it the most reasonable
conclusion.

>> shows they are a small part of the accidents anyway. And is driving
>> dangerous top heavy pick-ups itself not an indication of lack
>> of drivers education?
>
>Well...is it the driver or the tools? Classic Jeeps were known for tipping
>over but they are built to go down narrow dirt roads. Same with the
>near-recall of the Ford Bronco II in the 80s. It rolled a lot and rolled
>easily, but that's the trade off of having an off-road capable vehicle.
>
>> >See above. When you look at death per hour of driving (original links)
>the
>> >US is very low and this suggests that US drivers are *more* safe in terms
>of
>> >hours spent behind the wheel.
>>
>> In *your* artificial terms of per hours spend or per mile, sure. In real
>> life terms of how likely they are too die, US drivers are three times
>> worse as the UK and Holland. I would call a factor 3 a big difference.
>
>See above. Driver one in Holland travels 1,000 miles by car in his lifetime.
>Driver two in Holland travels 1,000,000 miles by car in his lifetime. Which
>one will be more likey to die in a traffic accident?
>
>Deaths per mile driven is the central issue.

It is. Part of really understanding mathematics is to know when a
formulae is appropriate and when it is not. You are like the old
Greeks; you discover a formula that you find impressive and then try
to bend the facts around it.

>> And your new data suggesting that much of all those miles driven that
>> depress the US numbers so much are not just due to greater expanse,
>> but also due to a greater fraction of miles driven by more competent
>> and experienced professional drivers, makes the indications that there
>> is something very wrong with nonprofessional US drivers even stronger.
>
>No. There are a million alternative explanations for that. See above. The
>least complicated interpretation is that more time driving = more accidents.

I prefer the most reasonable explanation above the least complicated,
personally. But then, I put together mathematics to describe the
facts, not the facts to describe mathematics.

Anyway, I am out of here. I have no desire to see what crackpottism
you come up to bend around your ludicrous formula
small country = slow speeds
you stated world traveler. )

Leon

>-John

--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)

Having just come back from a 3 week trip to Scotland and England where I
drove a rental, let me make the following observations:

1. The average driver in the UK is so far superior to the average driver
in North America, it totally amazed me. In 3 weeks I observed only 3
drivers talking on the cell phone while driving (yes, I know it is
illegal over there but that wouldn't stop a typical North American if he
could put down his chicken nuggets and Pepsi long enough to hold the
thing.) We were typically driving on very twisty narrow A roads barely
wide enough for two cars to pass and yet the oncoming car was always in
full control. Levels of courtesy was also far higher. Rules like
staying out of the passing lanes on the motorways were generally well
adhered to, unlike where I normally drive!

2. As a first time driver in the UK I was allowed to get into a right
hand drive car and shift with my "wrong" (left) hand while driving on
the "wrong" (left) side of the road, all this without any practice and
testing to see if I would kill myself and any oncoming drivers. So
whatever testing the UK drivers are submitted to is obviously FAR more
than I had, in order to occupy the same roads. In spite of trying to be
very careful in the first few days I had a few tense moments, saved only
by the quick reflexes and courtesy of the driver nearby. Here in North
America I would have been toast! Once I got a bit more practiced I had
great fun whether on motorways or twisty rock wall lined single lane
roads. Here I am often just frustrated on far larger roads.

The only downside was driving the rental car rather than my Miata.

Dave

Eric Baber wrote:

> I still find it frightening to think that most of the other drivers here in
> the UK (where I live now) have never had any proper instruction (they've
> mostly been taught by their father/mother/great-grandfather etc), and until
> they passed their exam were never allowed to drive on the motorway. That
> boggles my mind: "You're not allowed to drive on the motorway until you get
> your license; but once you get your license you're allowed to go 70mph,
> faster than you've ever driven, on a fast motorway without any supervision
> or help". Very scary.
>
> Eric
>
>

junktin wrote:

> Having just come back from a 3 week trip to Scotland and England where I
> drove a rental, let me make the following observations:
>
> 1. The average driver in the UK is so far superior to the average driver
> in North America, it totally amazed me.

In that case the 'merkins must be atrocious!
>
> 2. As a first time driver in the UK I was allowed to get into a right
> hand drive car and shift with my "wrong" (left) hand while driving on
> the "wrong" (left) side of the road, all this without any practice and
> testing to see if I would kill myself and any oncoming drivers.

Same if I go to continental Europe. Most people don't have a huge
problem adapting to the different gearchange, unlike going from a new
Jap car to a Mk1 MX-5 and wiping the windscreen at every junction ;-)

Roger (in the UK)