freon

"Z.Z." > wrote in message
...
> Daniel J. Stern wrote:
>
> >
> > It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
> > think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
> > conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper
> > procedures being followed ...
>
> I guess that could be a consideration. But it seems to me that if the
> goal truly is to limit the emission of (supposedly) ozone-depleting
> and/or greenhouse gasses there'd be some limits on using them in aerosol
> cans as well. I mean, most automotive A/C system hold, what?, a couple
> pounds of refrigerant, mostly r-134 these days. Even assuming that all
> that 134 will eventually leak out, how much more will be emitted from
> spray cans over the same time period? The 134 in your car's A/C should
> last several years, barring some catastrophic failure. In that time,
> you'll likely release many times that amount in propellant in the various
> spray cans you use...deoderant, spray paint, canned 'air', etc. I'd think
> that over a given time period, many time more r-134 would be released
> from spray cans than from car A/C systems. But then, laws aren't always
> made based on valid scientific knowledge or logic...
>

Oh, it's even worse than that. I've got a can here, Chemtronics Freez-IT,
the label says 100% R134a. Next to it is another can Falcon Dust Off
Freeze Spray, same thing. You can go to Fry's and they have pallets of
the stuff they sell for a couple bucks to the general public. Both these
are intended to be used to find thermal problems in electronic gear. I
use them in the shop when freeing stuck bolts - heat the thing the bolt is
stuck in up with a propane torch, then when it's good and hot, soak the
bolt in Freeze Spray and remove.

And not only is R134a used in these products, it's also used in blown-in
insulation and a lot of other products where it quickly outgasses to the
atmosphere.

And as far as R12 goes, what everyone seems to miss is that as time
passes the R12 that is evacuated from existing refrigerant systems and
is reclaimed, it is going to be sold again, then used to fill auto A/C
systems which ultimately will leak. This process will continue until
there are no more cars that take R12, which probably will take another
20 years to have happen. But once it does happen the price of R12
will drop, and eventually people will be sitting on old R12 that has
become worthless, then where do you think it will go? Do you think
people will pay to dispose of it? I doubt it I think they will landfill it
and ultimately the containers will rust and the R12 will escape.

The only way to truly get R12 out of the environment is to burn it
on the ground in an incinerator, or allow it to escape where eventually
natural processes in the stratosphere will destroy it. And, nobody is
burning R12 in incinerators now, (it's worth too much) and I can
almost guarentee that most R12 in use now will never end up
incinerated.

And the same thing is going to happen to the R134a that is produced.

The only way to stop the release of refrigerant is to stop manufacturing
it. All the laws on releasing R134a and R12 while servicing A/C systems
are merely feel-good, they simply delay the inevitable. Sooner or later
no matter how many charge/reclaim/charge cycles that a pound of
R134a or R12 goes through, it will inevitably end up in an auto system that
goes bad and leaks.

The only A/C servicing laws that do any good at all are the ones that
make it illegal to fill a R134a system that you know has a serious leak in
it
(as opposed to a potential leak that may happen in the future) as
these help to slow down the global consumption of R134a by a slight
amount.


Ted

"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Coasty" > wrote:
>
>> Must be Sterns bitch enough said!
>
> Your computer seems to have run out of comma's and apostrophe's.
> Please visit your local grade school for a free re-fill.
>
> Or; you -could- take the route where you don't look like such a
> blow hard and answer the questions that I posed.
>
> 1) Show where Daniel Stern stated that Freeze-12 was not an
> approved substitute for R-12.
>
> 2) Explain how wholesalers and/or retailers obtain supplies of
> R-12 in your state and avoid "losing everything."

No explanation needed the Law is the Law, I do not need to get into a
dissertation about my particular State Laws to have them rebuffed or argued
against the laws are what they are. You either follow them or suffer the
consequences.

It is funny that both yourself and Stern just love to argue I think it is
because both of you just like to argue and love to hear your own din.
--
Coasty
SEMPER PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:38:47 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> wrote:

>
>"Z.Z." > wrote in message
...
>> Daniel J. Stern wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
>> > think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
>> > conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper
>> > procedures being followed ...
>>
>> I guess that could be a consideration. But it seems to me that if the
>> goal truly is to limit the emission of (supposedly) ozone-depleting
>> and/or greenhouse gasses there'd be some limits on using them in aerosol
>> cans as well. I mean, most automotive A/C system hold, what?, a couple
>> pounds of refrigerant, mostly r-134 these days. Even assuming that all
>> that 134 will eventually leak out, how much more will be emitted from
>> spray cans over the same time period? The 134 in your car's A/C should
>> last several years, barring some catastrophic failure. In that time,
>> you'll likely release many times that amount in propellant in the various
>> spray cans you use...deoderant, spray paint, canned 'air', etc. I'd think
>> that over a given time period, many time more r-134 would be released
>> from spray cans than from car A/C systems. But then, laws aren't always
>> made based on valid scientific knowledge or logic...
>>
>
>Oh, it's even worse than that. I've got a can here, Chemtronics Freez-IT,
>the label says 100% R134a. Next to it is another can Falcon Dust Off
>Freeze Spray, same thing. You can go to Fry's and they have pallets of
>the stuff they sell for a couple bucks to the general public. Both these
>are intended to be used to find thermal problems in electronic gear. I
>use them in the shop when freeing stuck bolts - heat the thing the bolt is
>stuck in up with a propane torch, then when it's good and hot, soak the
>bolt in Freeze Spray and remove.
>
>And not only is R134a used in these products, it's also used in blown-in
>insulation and a lot of other products where it quickly outgasses to the
>atmosphere.
>
>And as far as R12 goes, what everyone seems to miss is that as time
>passes the R12 that is evacuated from existing refrigerant systems and
>is reclaimed, it is going to be sold again, then used to fill auto A/C
>systems which ultimately will leak. This process will continue until
>there are no more cars that take R12, which probably will take another
>20 years to have happen. But once it does happen the price of R12
>will drop, and eventually people will be sitting on old R12 that has
>become worthless, then where do you think it will go? Do you think
>people will pay to dispose of it? I doubt it I think they will landfill it
>and ultimately the containers will rust and the R12 will escape.
>
>The only way to truly get R12 out of the environment is to burn it
>on the ground in an incinerator, or allow it to escape where eventually
>natural processes in the stratosphere will destroy it. And, nobody is
>burning R12 in incinerators now, (it's worth too much) and I can
>almost guarentee that most R12 in use now will never end up
>incinerated.
>
>And the same thing is going to happen to the R134a that is produced.
>
>The only way to stop the release of refrigerant is to stop manufacturing
>it. All the laws on releasing R134a and R12 while servicing A/C systems
>are merely feel-good, they simply delay the inevitable. Sooner or later
>no matter how many charge/reclaim/charge cycles that a pound of
>R134a or R12 goes through, it will inevitably end up in an auto system that
>goes bad and leaks.
>
>The only A/C servicing laws that do any good at all are the ones that
>make it illegal to fill a R134a system that you know has a serious leak in
>it
>(as opposed to a potential leak that may happen in the future) as
>these help to slow down the global consumption of R134a by a slight
>amount.
>
>
>Ted
>


Assuming the environment has some capacity to "digest" the r12 either
by chemical means or simply because it just dissipates into space, the
longer you drag out the release, the less damaging the R12 (and any
other refrigerant) will be. So I don't see it as just "delay" but as
a "taking longer" so it allows natural processes more time to take
care of things.

What you want is completely illegal. The fittings are made incompatible
for a reason- to prevent inadvertent cross-contamination between
refrigerant types. To convert to R-134a, you need to change the fittings
(and buy the correct adaptor hoses for your guage set, available at any
A/C supply house), flush the system, replace the laundry list of
incompatible parts (mainly the drier and some O-rings) and fill with
R-134a compatible oil.

Don't use the "conversion kits" they sell in stores- those are
compressor-destruction-in-a-can.


tom wrote:

> I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.
> Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
> license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
> with no such requirement.
>
> Questions:
> Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?
>
> How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be
> the r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans.
> I don't want to replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges
> will not work with the newer valves.
>
> What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for
> the can, and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system
> thru the original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to
> use R134 leak detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar
> product to recharge the system.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Tony

maxpower wrote:

>>
> Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
> people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity

Even if the above slander were true, Dan's right and "Coasty" is wrong
on this one.

Coasty wrote:

> "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article >,
>>"maxpower" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
>>>people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity
>>
>>Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
>>error.
>
>
>
>
> He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
> replacement along with several others see link
> http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig...sts/mvacs.html
>
> Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources, which
> highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of systems. In
> the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really
> does not have any practical knowledge. Also, where I live it is illegal to
> buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can lose
> everything. Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten up
> the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
> legally.
>
> As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting man he is
> not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.

I'd bet you're wrong on that.

I don't think you're reading his posts accurately, because in your
"rebuttal," you haven't actually contradicted a damn thing he said.