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#11
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one explanation of gas prices
Matthew Russotto wrote: > In article .com>, > js > wrote: > > > >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> > >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from > >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt > >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down > >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather > >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you > >> imply about the media. > > > >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can > >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you > >explain using economics how this is done? > > The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into > and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices up, not down. OK, next. > However, sneaky > ways abound. Black helicopter theory - I get it. Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh. > Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations > relating to gasoline volatility and contents. No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction. > Inspections of > pipelines using somewhat harsher criteria than normal. That would increase prices and then only if a pipeline were shut down and then only if a pipeline load couldn't be shifted. Care to share the exampl,e. Clearly when pipelines happen, it makes the news. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14219844/ > Or just a > whisper in the ear of oil company executives that they'll find the > government a lot friendlier in the future if they take a certain > actions now. Sure, that's it.....conspiracy between Cheney, Bush, and their immediate family members. Now, how does this change the retail price of gasoline again? > Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock, Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining supply, not the reverse. > shutting down offshore platforms on some pretext, Wrong again - increases price, and then it is an increase in crude price and that hasn't happened. > imposing an embargo > on an unfriendly oil-exporting country, etc. Again, that didn't happen, either..... OK so that leaves us with the global supply and demand explanation why the price of gas at retail in the US has dropped 50 cents in the past 6 weeks. Thanks for playing, though. > There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can > result in a fully-depreciated one. So, the Enron accountants found a new job? Too funny. bye. js |
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#12
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one explanation of gas prices
In article .com>,
js > wrote: > >Matthew Russotto wrote: >> In article .com>, >> js > wrote: >> > >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: >> >> >> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from >> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt >> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down >> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather >> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you >> >> imply about the media. >> > >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you >> >explain using economics how this is done? >> >> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into >> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. > >http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html > >That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The >announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices >up, not down. > >OK, next. > >> However, sneaky >> ways abound. > >Black helicopter theory - I get it. Black helicopters exist too. >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh. If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't; that's what being sneaky is all about. But I'm not claiming any manipulation is going on, only that dismissing the idea out of hand as impossible is naive. >> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations >> relating to gasoline volatility and contents. > >No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California >legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction. Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain regulations earlier this summer. >> Or just a >> whisper in the ear of oil company executives that they'll find the >> government a lot friendlier in the future if they take a certain >> actions now. > >Sure, that's it.....conspiracy between Cheney, Bush, and their >immediate family members. Now, how does this change the retail price >of gasoline again? > >> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock, > >Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining >supply, not the reverse. You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
#13
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one explanation of gas prices
Matthew Russotto wrote: > In article .com>, > js > wrote: > > > >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> In article .com>, > >> js > wrote: > >> > > >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> >> > >> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from > >> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt > >> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down > >> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather > >> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you > >> >> imply about the media. > >> > > >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can > >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you > >> >explain using economics how this is done? > >> > >> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into > >> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. > > > >http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html > > > >That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The > >announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices > >up, not down. > > > >OK, next. > > > >> However, sneaky > >> ways abound. > > > >Black helicopter theory - I get it. > > Black helicopters exist too. Yeh, sure.... > > >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh. > > If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't; Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to keep a secret? > that's > what being sneaky is all about. How well has Washington ever been able to keep a secret? > But I'm not claiming any manipulation > is going on, I asked the question: "...I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you explain using economics how this is done?" in response to this, "...It's an attempt to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down to influence the November elections." And you listed a variety of conspiracy theories which tended to suggest that increasing prices is a possibility, though you really missed the boat on the economic explanation. > only that dismissing the idea out of hand as impossible > is naive. It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively. > >> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations > >> relating to gasoline volatility and contents. > > > >No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California > >legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction. > > Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain > regulations earlier this summer. Bush did? And which were those? Come on, use a URL and then explain the economics. Here are the Sept. 2005 standard RVPs. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b05012.pdf The Task Force report was issued in June 2006. No changes were made. RVP Boutique fuel regulations add less than 3 cents to a gallon of gas and that is a local, not a national effect. Play again? Here's the data - http://www.epa.gov/OMS/boutique/reso...vp%20200 6%22 > >> Or just a > >> whisper in the ear of oil company executives that they'll find the > >> government a lot friendlier in the future if they take a certain > >> actions now. > > > >Sure, that's it.....conspiracy between Cheney, Bush, and their > >immediate family members. Now, how does this change the retail price > >of gasoline again? > > > >> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock, > > > >Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining > >supply, not the reverse. > > You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which > way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis. Let's stay on topic ok? The question asked was how Bush lowered gas prices at the pump this past month. > There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can > result in a fully-depreciated one. Well, I suppose in the absence of any economic arguments, you now want to argue accounting practices? Before further digging your hole, perhaps a quick read of FASB docs might help? http://www.fasb.org/st/ Play again? js |
#14
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one explanation of gas prices
In article . com>,
js > wrote: > >Matthew Russotto wrote: >> In article .com>, >> js > wrote: >> > >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: >> >> In article .com>, >> >> js > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from >> >> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt >> >> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down >> >> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather >> >> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you >> >> >> imply about the media. >> >> > >> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can >> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you >> >> >explain using economics how this is done? >> >> >> >> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into >> >> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. >> > >> >http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html >> > >> >That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The >> >announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices >> >up, not down. >> > >> >OK, next. >> > >> >> However, sneaky >> >> ways abound. >> > >> >Black helicopter theory - I get it. >> >> Black helicopters exist too. > >Yeh, sure.... I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good reasons to do so. >> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh. >> >> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't; > >Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to >keep a secret? Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures. >> But I'm not claiming any manipulation >> is going on, > >I asked the question: "...I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that >retail gasoline prices can >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you >explain using economics how this is done?" > >It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices >can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively. It's naive to think that they cannot. >> >> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations >> >> relating to gasoline volatility and contents. >> > >> >No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California >> >legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction. >> >> Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain >> regulations earlier this summer. > >Bush did? And which were those? Come on, use a URL and then explain >the economics. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042600383.html >> >> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock, >> > >> >Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining >> >supply, not the reverse. >> >> You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which >> way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis. > >Let's stay on topic ok? The question asked was how Bush lowered gas >prices at the pump this past month. No: THIS was the question: >> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can >> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you >> >> >explain using economics how this is done? -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
#15
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one explanation of gas prices
Matthew Russotto wrote: > In article .com>, > js > wrote: > > >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can > >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you > >explain using economics how this is done? > > The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into > and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. A drop in the ocean ! Graham |
#16
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one explanation of gas prices
Matthew Russotto wrote: > In article . com>, > js > wrote: > > > >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> In article .com>, > >> js > wrote: > >> > > >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> >> In article .com>, > >> >> js > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from > >> >> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt > >> >> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down > >> >> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather > >> >> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you > >> >> >> imply about the media. > >> >> > > >> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can > >> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you > >> >> >explain using economics how this is done? > >> >> > >> >> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into > >> >> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. > >> > > >> >http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html > >> > > >> >That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The > >> >announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices > >> >up, not down. > >> > > >> >OK, next. > >> > > >> >> However, sneaky > >> >> ways abound. > >> > > >> >Black helicopter theory - I get it. > >> > >> Black helicopters exist too. > > > >Yeh, sure.... > > I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men > forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good > reasons to do so. Perhaps you missed this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...spiracy_theory > >> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh. > >> > >> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't; > > > >Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to > >keep a secret? > > Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures. I trust CNN and NYT to dig. > >> But I'm not claiming any manipulation > >> is going on, > > > >I asked the question: "...I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that > >retail gasoline prices can > >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you > >explain using economics how this is done?" > > > >It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices > >can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively. > > It's naive to think that they cannot. Explain the economics. > >> >> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations > >> >> relating to gasoline volatility and contents. > >> > > >> >No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California > >> >legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction. > >> > >> Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain > >> regulations earlier this summer. > > > >Bush did? And which were those? Come on, use a URL and then explain > >the economics. > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042600383.html It was April and here is what was said: "...urged the waiver of clean air rules" whuch didn't happen by the way. and "Still, experts said Bush's actions wouldn't have much impact on prices at the pump. The president warned that motorists would have to dig deep into their pockets all summer long." And here is the price of gasoline historic graph. Note two things. First, after the Bush announcement gas prices went UP, not down, and that the shape of the curve shows EXACTLY what demand effects are during summer driving months - and this effect happens every year. So, irrespective of what you believe is happening in the deep recesses of the Bush Whitehouse, the supply and demand for gasoline (and oil) drives the price - not George or Dick. DATA. http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petro...home_page.html > >> >> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock, > >> > > >> >Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining > >> >supply, not the reverse. > >> > >> You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which > >> way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis. > > > >Let's stay on topic ok? The question asked was how Bush lowered gas > >prices at the pump this past month. > > No: THIS was the question: > > >> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can > >> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you > >> >> >explain using economics how this is done? And the context was: "It's an attempt to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down to influence the November elections." Play again? Didn't think so. js |
#17
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one explanation of gas prices
In article .com>,
js > wrote: > >Matthew Russotto wrote: >> In article . com>, >> js > wrote: >> > >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: >> >> >> >> Black helicopters exist too. >> > >> >Yeh, sure.... >> >> I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men >> forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good >> reasons to do so. > >Perhaps you missed this: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...spiracy_theory I'm aware of it. The problem is that lazy skeptics took their skepticism to the point where up until 9/10/2001, you could have flown a black helicopter onto the White House lawn and the Secret Service would deny that it existed for fear of being labeled a kook. And that's about the level of skepticism you're at now. >> >> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh. >> >> >> >> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't; >> > >> >Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to >> >keep a secret? >> >> Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures. > >I trust CNN and NYT to dig. Like I said, you only know about the failures. >> >It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices >> >can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively. >> >> It's naive to think that they cannot. > >Explain the economics. Asked and answered. I've provided several ways the White House can manipulate the supply (and hence the price) of retail gasoline. You've mostly claimed they haven't happened, which is a far cry from it not being possible for them to happen. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
#18
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one explanation of gas prices
Matthew Russotto wrote: > In article .com>, > js > wrote: > > > >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> In article . com>, > >> js > wrote: > >> > > >> >Matthew Russotto wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Black helicopters exist too. > >> > > >> >Yeh, sure.... > >> > >> I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men > >> forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good > >> reasons to do so. > > > >Perhaps you missed this: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...spiracy_theory > > I'm aware of it. The problem is that lazy skeptics took their > skepticism to the point where up until 9/10/2001, you could have > flown a black helicopter onto the White House lawn and the Secret > Service would deny that it existed for fear of being labeled a kook. > > And that's about the level of skepticism you're at now. > > >> >> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh. > >> >> > >> >> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't; > >> > > >> >Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to > >> >keep a secret? > >> > >> Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures. > > > >I trust CNN and NYT to dig. > > Like I said, you only know about the failures. > > >> >It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices > >> >can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively. > >> > >> It's naive to think that they cannot. > > > >Explain the economics. > > Asked and answered. Sorry, but no. I showed you with evidence from real data that even with the best intentions and with ful support of Congress, the Whitehouse is impotent to significantly alter the short term supply of gasoline sufficient to change the retail price by more than a few cents. The April 2006 case is just one data point. Sorry - but the only way the Whitehouse can impact on the price of gas is to increase political uncertainty in the Mideast by saber rattling and that just increases the futures prices of oil and the price of gas. > I've provided several ways the White House can > manipulate the supply (and hence the price) of retail gasoline. The Strategic Oil Reserves is a nominal tool. It has some short term impact on maintaining prices or slowing their increase. > You've mostly claimed they haven't happened, which is a far cry from > it not being possible for them to happen. The 50 cent drop since late August is NOT a manipulation by the Whitehouse for the purpose of influencing the November election. It is a consistent and expected seasonal effect - look at the data yourself - I have provided the link. The economics of gasoline prices is linked to the price of oil, not the Whitehouse. My economics beats your black helicopters. js |
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