Help. replaced dead battery, now engine starts but won't run.

Hi,
I'm stumped, seeking your tips for things to check. Have searched
this forum and have tried suggestions posted by others for situations
with similar symptoms. But no luck.

The car: '85 Golf 1.8 L gas, automatic. 236,000 km (about 146,000
miles). Has been running fine since last failure (failed hall sender
replaced in February 2006).

On Friday, wife drove car home, parked it. Nothing out of the
ordinary. Car was running just fine then. Saturday morning, jumped in
car--engine wouldn't turn over. Starter went click-click. Turned on
dome light, tried restart. Dome light dimmed completely when starter
was engaged. Hmm...ok, dead battery. Jumped battery with another car,
dead car's engine started momentarily (1 second) then quit. That's odd.
Attributed problem to a dead battery. Battery was 9 years old, and
finally failed on the drive home Friday. Decided to replace the
battery.

This is the odd part. After installing a new battery the '85 won't
run. Engine will turn over just fine, it will start and run at most for
1/2 to 1 second, then just quit. No sputtering, just quit as if turning
the ignition off. Mostly it'll turn over without catching. When it does
catch, it'll run for 1/2 to 1 second. Giving more gas doesn't increase
engine RPM. Engine still quits.

Over the last 2 days of testing, out of about 20 attempts to start,
the engine started a total of 2 times and ran (elation!) for about 8 to
10 seconds each time then quit (elation dashed).

Have checked
- battery connections (clean and tight). Starter turns over fine, so
not a poor battery connection.
- checked placement of battery, haven't pinched a wire. No broken wires
to battery terminals.
- checked grounds in engine compartment and to engine block (cleaned
and re-tightened).
- checked vacuum hoses, mostly okay. Line from valve cover to intake
manifold was mushy and cracked, so will replace that tomorrow.
Otherwise the hose was clear--could blow air through it by mouth. Have
clamped on new, temporary hose for now.
- checked Mass Air Flow sensor, it is moving smoothly up and down, is
centred, and is clean, not sticking. And no oil or gas evident on
aircleaner below (no leaks, no blow back from valve cover)
- checked fuel pumps, both run when ignition turned on and stop when
system pressurized. Haven't checked fuel flow as fuel hose connection
located beside passenger shock column is seized tight, can't
disconnect. Fuel pump fuse okay.
- tried another fuel pump relay, no change.
- checked connections on coolant temperature sensor. OK.
- checked rotor, cap, and vacuum advance (suck on hose, timing advances
ok). Cap, rotor in good condition. Checked connection to hall sender on
side of distributor--OK.
- Pulled #1 plug. Checked for spark. OK. Plugs are only a couple of
months old.
- #1 plug was wet with gas, so assuming fuel supply okay. Car was
running fine day before.
- checked connection at idle stabilizer valve. OK. But in replacing the
battery, I was nowhere near the passenger side of engine. So not
inclined to mess around too much on passenger side of engine
compartment.
- fuel is at 1/4 mark on gauge but gauge isn't accurate. However,
distance wise, a tank will last about 500 km and distance since last
fill is only about 300 km. Are symptoms consistent with being out of
gas?

Items replaced in January-Februray 2006.
- transfer fuel pump
- fuel pump relay
- ignition wires
- spark plugs
- cap rotor
- hall sender (the real culprit, failed after 20 years and 230,000 km)

What am I missing? The only change was replacing the battery. Was a
dying/dead battery symptoms of something else? Did I dislogde something
in swapping batteries (I checked for this).

Weather: warm, sunny, has been dry. Temps in mid 20's C. (70's F, hey
we're bilingual). Moisture not an issue.

I'm thinking a loose connection somewhere that is cutting off fuel
supply or ignition or a leaking vacuum line--but why would changing the
battery exacerbate any of these causes? There's lots of room in those
'85 engine compartments, not a tight fit to change the battery at all.

Those 2 times the engine continued to run, it ran normally for the 8
to 10 seconds. I could rev it up and it idled normally -- until it
quits seconds later.

I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

thanks, (and thanks for reading this long post)
-Tony

fuel
compression
spark

something is not right. Maybe the spark is too weak due to a failing ign.
coil.
Ignition module is a possibility also or bad ign switch.
The systems can be checked easier while the engine is not running or not
starting. I like to use a remote starter while checking components. ;-)

THESE ARE THE EXTREMELY BIZARRE ONES! LOL
I have seen a few vehicles that had trouble like yours. 2 had timing belts
with crushed/missing teeth. Sometimes would start and other times would
not. It might have made the 'NO-COMPRESSION" cranking sound sometimes too.
The other one that I have seen was a bad oil pump. It would start and then
quietly die out. The problem was the oil pressure became so great that the
lifters pumped up and kept the valves open killing the engine. Of course
when the lifters bled down the compression would return and the engine would
start until the lifters pumped up too much.

--
later,
dave
(One out of many daves)

"tonyw" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi,
> I'm stumped, seeking your tips for things to check. Have searched
> this forum and have tried suggestions posted by others for situations
> with similar symptoms. But no luck.
>
> The car: '85 Golf 1.8 L gas, automatic. 236,000 km (about 146,000
> miles). Has been running fine since last failure (failed hall sender
> replaced in February 2006).
>
> On Friday, wife drove car home, parked it. Nothing out of the
> ordinary. Car was running just fine then. Saturday morning, jumped in
> car--engine wouldn't turn over. Starter went click-click. Turned on
> dome light, tried restart. Dome light dimmed completely when starter
> was engaged. Hmm...ok, dead battery. Jumped battery with another car,
> dead car's engine started momentarily (1 second) then quit. That's odd.
> Attributed problem to a dead battery. Battery was 9 years old, and
> finally failed on the drive home Friday. Decided to replace the
> battery.
>
> This is the odd part. After installing a new battery the '85 won't
> run. Engine will turn over just fine, it will start and run at most for
> 1/2 to 1 second, then just quit. No sputtering, just quit as if turning
> the ignition off. Mostly it'll turn over without catching. When it does
> catch, it'll run for 1/2 to 1 second. Giving more gas doesn't increase
> engine RPM. Engine still quits.
>
> Over the last 2 days of testing, out of about 20 attempts to start,
> the engine started a total of 2 times and ran (elation!) for about 8 to
> 10 seconds each time then quit (elation dashed).
>
> Have checked
> - battery connections (clean and tight). Starter turns over fine, so
> not a poor battery connection.
> - checked placement of battery, haven't pinched a wire. No broken wires
> to battery terminals.
> - checked grounds in engine compartment and to engine block (cleaned
> and re-tightened).
> - checked vacuum hoses, mostly okay. Line from valve cover to intake
> manifold was mushy and cracked, so will replace that tomorrow.
> Otherwise the hose was clear--could blow air through it by mouth. Have
> clamped on new, temporary hose for now.
> - checked Mass Air Flow sensor, it is moving smoothly up and down, is
> centred, and is clean, not sticking. And no oil or gas evident on
> aircleaner below (no leaks, no blow back from valve cover)
> - checked fuel pumps, both run when ignition turned on and stop when
> system pressurized. Haven't checked fuel flow as fuel hose connection
> located beside passenger shock column is seized tight, can't
> disconnect. Fuel pump fuse okay.
> - tried another fuel pump relay, no change.
> - checked connections on coolant temperature sensor. OK.
> - checked rotor, cap, and vacuum advance (suck on hose, timing advances
> ok). Cap, rotor in good condition. Checked connection to hall sender on
> side of distributor--OK.
> - Pulled #1 plug. Checked for spark. OK. Plugs are only a couple of
> months old.
> - #1 plug was wet with gas, so assuming fuel supply okay. Car was
> running fine day before.
> - checked connection at idle stabilizer valve. OK. But in replacing the
> battery, I was nowhere near the passenger side of engine. So not
> inclined to mess around too much on passenger side of engine
> compartment.
> - fuel is at 1/4 mark on gauge but gauge isn't accurate. However,
> distance wise, a tank will last about 500 km and distance since last
> fill is only about 300 km. Are symptoms consistent with being out of
> gas?
>
> Items replaced in January-Februray 2006.
> - transfer fuel pump
> - fuel pump relay
> - ignition wires
> - spark plugs
> - cap rotor
> - hall sender (the real culprit, failed after 20 years and 230,000 km)
>
> What am I missing? The only change was replacing the battery. Was a
> dying/dead battery symptoms of something else? Did I dislogde something
> in swapping batteries (I checked for this).
>
> Weather: warm, sunny, has been dry. Temps in mid 20's C. (70's F, hey
> we're bilingual). Moisture not an issue.
>
> I'm thinking a loose connection somewhere that is cutting off fuel
> supply or ignition or a leaking vacuum line--but why would changing the
> battery exacerbate any of these causes? There's lots of room in those
> '85 engine compartments, not a tight fit to change the battery at all.
>
> Those 2 times the engine continued to run, it ran normally for the 8
> to 10 seconds. I could rev it up and it idled normally -- until it
> quits seconds later.
>
> I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
>
> thanks, (and thanks for reading this long post)
> -Tony
>

I skimmed through your post, so if you checked that and I missed it,
sorry...
What you're describing sounds to me like a dead alternator.
That would account for the dead battery to begin with, as well.....
~Mister.Lull
tonyw wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm stumped, seeking your tips for things to check. Have searched
> this forum and have tried suggestions posted by others for situations
> with similar symptoms. But no luck.
>
> The car: '85 Golf 1.8 L gas, automatic. 236,000 km (about 146,000
> miles). Has been running fine since last failure (failed hall sender
> replaced in February 2006).
>
> On Friday, wife drove car home, parked it. Nothing out of the
> ordinary. Car was running just fine then. Saturday morning, jumped in
> car--engine wouldn't turn over. Starter went click-click. Turned on
> dome light, tried restart. Dome light dimmed completely when starter
> was engaged. Hmm...ok, dead battery. Jumped battery with another car,
> dead car's engine started momentarily (1 second) then quit. That's odd.
> Attributed problem to a dead battery. Battery was 9 years old, and
> finally failed on the drive home Friday. Decided to replace the
> battery.
>
> This is the odd part. After installing a new battery the '85 won't
> run. Engine will turn over just fine, it will start and run at most for
> 1/2 to 1 second, then just quit. No sputtering, just quit as if turning
> the ignition off. Mostly it'll turn over without catching. When it does
> catch, it'll run for 1/2 to 1 second. Giving more gas doesn't increase
> engine RPM. Engine still quits.
>
> Over the last 2 days of testing, out of about 20 attempts to start,
> the engine started a total of 2 times and ran (elation!) for about 8 to
> 10 seconds each time then quit (elation dashed).
>
> Have checked
> - battery connections (clean and tight). Starter turns over fine, so
> not a poor battery connection.
> - checked placement of battery, haven't pinched a wire. No broken wires
> to battery terminals.
> - checked grounds in engine compartment and to engine block (cleaned
> and re-tightened).
> - checked vacuum hoses, mostly okay. Line from valve cover to intake
> manifold was mushy and cracked, so will replace that tomorrow.
> Otherwise the hose was clear--could blow air through it by mouth. Have
> clamped on new, temporary hose for now.
> - checked Mass Air Flow sensor, it is moving smoothly up and down, is
> centred, and is clean, not sticking. And no oil or gas evident on
> aircleaner below (no leaks, no blow back from valve cover)
> - checked fuel pumps, both run when ignition turned on and stop when
> system pressurized. Haven't checked fuel flow as fuel hose connection
> located beside passenger shock column is seized tight, can't
> disconnect. Fuel pump fuse okay.
> - tried another fuel pump relay, no change.
> - checked connections on coolant temperature sensor. OK.
> - checked rotor, cap, and vacuum advance (suck on hose, timing advances
> ok). Cap, rotor in good condition. Checked connection to hall sender on
> side of distributor--OK.
> - Pulled #1 plug. Checked for spark. OK. Plugs are only a couple of
> months old.
> - #1 plug was wet with gas, so assuming fuel supply okay. Car was
> running fine day before.
> - checked connection at idle stabilizer valve. OK. But in replacing the
> battery, I was nowhere near the passenger side of engine. So not
> inclined to mess around too much on passenger side of engine
> compartment.
> - fuel is at 1/4 mark on gauge but gauge isn't accurate. However,
> distance wise, a tank will last about 500 km and distance since last
> fill is only about 300 km. Are symptoms consistent with being out of
> gas?
>
> Items replaced in January-Februray 2006.
> - transfer fuel pump
> - fuel pump relay
> - ignition wires
> - spark plugs
> - cap rotor
> - hall sender (the real culprit, failed after 20 years and 230,000 km)
>
> What am I missing? The only change was replacing the battery. Was a
> dying/dead battery symptoms of something else? Did I dislogde something
> in swapping batteries (I checked for this).
>
> Weather: warm, sunny, has been dry. Temps in mid 20's C. (70's F, hey
> we're bilingual). Moisture not an issue.
>
> I'm thinking a loose connection somewhere that is cutting off fuel
> supply or ignition or a leaking vacuum line--but why would changing the
> battery exacerbate any of these causes? There's lots of room in those
> '85 engine compartments, not a tight fit to change the battery at all.
>
> Those 2 times the engine continued to run, it ran normally for the 8
> to 10 seconds. I could rev it up and it idled normally -- until it
> quits seconds later.
>
> I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
>
> thanks, (and thanks for reading this long post)
> -Tony

To clarify - Say your alternator goes out while you're driving. You
won't notice a thing, because it's simply recharging your battery. So
my guess is that your wife was driving home in the car, and somewhere
along the way, the alternator just gave out. For some portion of the
distance home, the car was left running off of the reserve juice in the
battery - which drained it a fair amount. Now, here's where my
experience doesn't match with my logic... I had a car (toyota) that
this happened on, but since I was blaring a stereo while driving on the
freeway when my alt went out, my deck started giving me troubles
(because it was low on electricity). I got home no problem, thinking
that my stereo needed repair, and thought nothing of it. The next day,
sure enough, I couldn't start my car. My roommate came out and we
tried to jump my car. It worked. BUT! As soon as we removed the
jumper cables (both cars running) my car died. So we put the jumpers
on (car off), and let the battery charge for a while (half an hour).
Start my car up again, rev it up for a while and it seemed fine, but
the moment those jumper cables came off the car would just stop
running. No matter what, my car wouldn't run without the alternator
once it had died... It sounds like the same issue to me.
~Mister.Lull
Mister.Lull wrote:
> I skimmed through your post, so if you checked that and I missed it,
> sorry...
> What you're describing sounds to me like a dead alternator.
> That would account for the dead battery to begin with, as well.....
> ~Mister.Lull
> tonyw wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I'm stumped, seeking your tips for things to check. Have searched
> > this forum and have tried suggestions posted by others for situations
> > with similar symptoms. But no luck.
> >
> > The car: '85 Golf 1.8 L gas, automatic. 236,000 km (about 146,000
> > miles). Has been running fine since last failure (failed hall sender
> > replaced in February 2006).
> >
> > On Friday, wife drove car home, parked it. Nothing out of the
> > ordinary. Car was running just fine then. Saturday morning, jumped in
> > car--engine wouldn't turn over. Starter went click-click. Turned on
> > dome light, tried restart. Dome light dimmed completely when starter
> > was engaged. Hmm...ok, dead battery. Jumped battery with another car,
> > dead car's engine started momentarily (1 second) then quit. That's odd.
> > Attributed problem to a dead battery. Battery was 9 years old, and
> > finally failed on the drive home Friday. Decided to replace the
> > battery.
> >
> > This is the odd part. After installing a new battery the '85 won't
> > run. Engine will turn over just fine, it will start and run at most for
> > 1/2 to 1 second, then just quit. No sputtering, just quit as if turning
> > the ignition off. Mostly it'll turn over without catching. When it does
> > catch, it'll run for 1/2 to 1 second. Giving more gas doesn't increase
> > engine RPM. Engine still quits.
> >
> > Over the last 2 days of testing, out of about 20 attempts to start,
> > the engine started a total of 2 times and ran (elation!) for about 8 to
> > 10 seconds each time then quit (elation dashed).
> >
> > Have checked
> > - battery connections (clean and tight). Starter turns over fine, so
> > not a poor battery connection.
> > - checked placement of battery, haven't pinched a wire. No broken wires
> > to battery terminals.
> > - checked grounds in engine compartment and to engine block (cleaned
> > and re-tightened).
> > - checked vacuum hoses, mostly okay. Line from valve cover to intake
> > manifold was mushy and cracked, so will replace that tomorrow.
> > Otherwise the hose was clear--could blow air through it by mouth. Have
> > clamped on new, temporary hose for now.
> > - checked Mass Air Flow sensor, it is moving smoothly up and down, is
> > centred, and is clean, not sticking. And no oil or gas evident on
> > aircleaner below (no leaks, no blow back from valve cover)
> > - checked fuel pumps, both run when ignition turned on and stop when
> > system pressurized. Haven't checked fuel flow as fuel hose connection
> > located beside passenger shock column is seized tight, can't
> > disconnect. Fuel pump fuse okay.
> > - tried another fuel pump relay, no change.
> > - checked connections on coolant temperature sensor. OK.
> > - checked rotor, cap, and vacuum advance (suck on hose, timing advances
> > ok). Cap, rotor in good condition. Checked connection to hall sender on
> > side of distributor--OK.
> > - Pulled #1 plug. Checked for spark. OK. Plugs are only a couple of
> > months old.
> > - #1 plug was wet with gas, so assuming fuel supply okay. Car was
> > running fine day before.
> > - checked connection at idle stabilizer valve. OK. But in replacing the
> > battery, I was nowhere near the passenger side of engine. So not
> > inclined to mess around too much on passenger side of engine
> > compartment.
> > - fuel is at 1/4 mark on gauge but gauge isn't accurate. However,
> > distance wise, a tank will last about 500 km and distance since last
> > fill is only about 300 km. Are symptoms consistent with being out of
> > gas?
> >
> > Items replaced in January-Februray 2006.
> > - transfer fuel pump
> > - fuel pump relay
> > - ignition wires
> > - spark plugs
> > - cap rotor
> > - hall sender (the real culprit, failed after 20 years and 230,000 km)
> >
> > What am I missing? The only change was replacing the battery. Was a
> > dying/dead battery symptoms of something else? Did I dislogde something
> > in swapping batteries (I checked for this).
> >
> > Weather: warm, sunny, has been dry. Temps in mid 20's C. (70's F, hey
> > we're bilingual). Moisture not an issue.
> >
> > I'm thinking a loose connection somewhere that is cutting off fuel
> > supply or ignition or a leaking vacuum line--but why would changing the
> > battery exacerbate any of these causes? There's lots of room in those
> > '85 engine compartments, not a tight fit to change the battery at all.
> >
> > Those 2 times the engine continued to run, it ran normally for the 8
> > to 10 seconds. I could rev it up and it idled normally -- until it
> > quits seconds later.
> >
> > I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
> >
> > thanks, (and thanks for reading this long post)
> > -Tony

Thanks Dave and Mister Lull for your suggestions.

Hmm, interesting thoughts about the alternator, seems to fit the
scenario. Are there any tests on the alternator or voltage regulator I
can do without the engine running? Bentley doesn't give diagnostic
tests for the voltage regulator only on the alternator output voltage
with the engine running. The alternator is less than 2 years old and
the windings are in good condition and the brushes are still longer
than the minimum 0.5 cm.

Guess I can try another voltage regulator.

I wonder if I disposed of an otherwise good battery? I suppose at 9
years old it was going to go eventually, probably sooner than later.

thanks,
-Tony


Mister.Lull wrote:
> To clarify - Say your alternator goes out while you're driving. You
> won't notice a thing, because it's simply recharging your battery. So
> my guess is that your wife was driving home in the car, and somewhere
> along the way, the alternator just gave out.

In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled, tonyw wrote:

>
> Hmm, interesting thoughts about the alternator, seems to fit the
>scenario. Are there any tests on the alternator or voltage regulator I
>can do without the engine running? Bentley doesn't give diagnostic
>tests for the voltage regulator only on the alternator output voltage
>with the engine running. The alternator is less than 2 years old and
>the windings are in good condition and the brushes are still longer
>than the minimum 0.5 cm.
>
> Guess I can try another voltage regulator.

I expect the voltage on a charged battery with the engine running
with only a normal accessory road to be greater than 13.5 volts. If
the battery is discharged, the voltage could be lower, but would be
rising.

With the alternator not working but the engine running, I expect the
voltage to be under 12.5 volts. The voltage would be dropping with
time.

Hi,
An update, I tried a brand new voltage regulator, but no change.
Engine will turn over, catch for a fraction of a second then quit.
Could an alternator failure be more serious than the voltage regulator?
Could I temporarily swap an alternator from a '90 Golf?

Have also replaced the short rubber hose between the valve cover and
the intake manifold. Next I'll try replacing the short pieces of cloth
covered rubber hose that join the various pieces of solid plastic
vacuum lines. I don't have high hopes though.

Other possibilities: failing main fuel pump?

-Tony

Mister.Lull wrote:
> To clarify - Say your alternator goes out while you're driving. You
> won't notice a thing, because it's simply recharging your battery. So
> my guess is that your wife was driving home in the car, and somewhere
> along the way, the alternator just gave out.

Hi Dave,
Will check the less common causes you mention. The timing belt is
past the recommended replacement interval. Will also check the
compression.

stumped,
-Tony

One out of many Daves wrote:
> fuel
> compression
> spark
>
>
> THESE ARE THE EXTREMELY BIZARRE ONES! LOL
> I have seen a few vehicles that had trouble like yours. 2 had timing belts
> with crushed/missing teeth. Sometimes would start and other times would
> not. It might have made the 'NO-COMPRESSION" cranking sound sometimes too.

The alternator, if it is bad, should not stop an engine from running if the
battery had a full charge in it. ;-)

The timing belt will create a difference in the sound of the engine as it
spins over with the starter. You can usually tell with your ears. ;-)

I guess I would jump the fuel pump relay and keep the fuel pump running to
see if that could be the problem.

good luck,

--
later,
dave
(One out of many daves)

"tonyw" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Dave,
> Will check the less common causes you mention. The timing belt is
> past the recommended replacement interval. Will also check the
> compression.
>
> stumped,
> -Tony
>
> One out of many Daves wrote:
>> fuel
>> compression
>> spark
>>
>>
>> THESE ARE THE EXTREMELY BIZARRE ONES! LOL
>> I have seen a few vehicles that had trouble like yours. 2 had timing
>> belts
>> with crushed/missing teeth. Sometimes would start and other times would
>> not. It might have made the 'NO-COMPRESSION" cranking sound sometimes
>> too.
>

Hi Dave and all,
Agreed the battery should be able to run the engine on its own
without the alternator. The battery is brand new and has no trouble
repeatedly cranking the engine so has lots of capacity.

I checked the timing belt and it is tensioned correctly and is in
fair shape. I didn't notice any weird sounds when cranking, such as
valves out of synch with compression and exhausting--if that's what I
should be listening for. Cranks normally.

I put my hand on the main fuel pump while my wife cranked the engine.
By the vibrations, I'd say the main pump is running througout the
cranking and not quitting.

Question: from the positive battery post, there are 3 wires/cables.
One really large red cable going to the starter, one large cable going
to a plastic connector which I presume leads to the fuse box. There is
a third small cable with "invisible link" printed on the wire and there
is a rubber cylinder encircling the wire part way down the wire before
it disappears into the plastic loom. What is this third wire for? It's
under some tension when connected to the battory and I'm wondering when
I changed the battery I overstretched it and broke the conductor?

Second question, I'm pretty sure there is at least 1/4 tank of gas in
the car, but could it be as simple as being out of gas? Quite a
coincidence if the gas ran out the instant my wife parked the car. I'll
add 5 litres tomorrow and see.

thanks again,
-Tony

One out of many Daves wrote:
> The alternator, if it is bad, should not stop an engine from running if the
> battery had a full charge in it. ;-)
>
> The timing belt will create a difference in the sound of the engine as it
> spins over with the starter. You can usually tell with your ears. ;-)
>
> I guess I would jump the fuel pump relay and keep the fuel pump running to
> see if that could be the problem.
>
> good luck,
>
> --
> later,
> dave
> (One out of many daves)