Do I really need new brakes?

On 05/20/2010 08:06 AM, AZ Nomad wrote:
> On Thu, 20 May 2010 07:19:59 -0700, jim > wrote:
>> i think the reason they say to turn the disks is the mistaken belief
>> that rotors are warping. sure, they can give brake shudder symptoms
>> that seem /similar/ to warping, but the actual problem is that of wheel
>> seating, not anything actually wrong with the disk.
>
>> i proved this yet again a couple of weekends ago - friend got new tires,
>> the wheels were air-tooled back on, and sure enough, the brakes
>> shuddered like crazy. i took them off, scraped the rust off the
>> interface, wheel and hub, applied a little anti-seize, torqued the lug
>> nuts back on correctly, and "hey presto", all problems gone. i think
>> that when disks get turned, it's usually accompanied by general
>> clean-up, and it's that coincidence fixing any problems, not the actual
>> machining process.
>
>> regarding machining though, it does have a place. some aftermarket pads
>> can lead to very uneven wear of the disk surface. that is when you need
>> to machine - to make them flat again. when returning to use of a
>> quality or oem pad of course...
>
> I had a mechanic tell me that I should have my rotors turned as the pads
> would wear faster with even mild grooving.

really depends. the pads they use on german cars are really high silica
content and very abrasive. they munch disks frighteningly fast. the
up-side is that you never have any problems with corrosion or uneven
braking. and you don't need to machine the disks either. the down-side
is that you pretty much always have to replace disks and pads at the
same time.


>
> Not sure I agree. I never turn rotors; I replace them and only replace
> them if I can detect vibration during braking.

try what i outlined above and see if that fixes it.


> I'd rather replace
> pads twice as frequently than lose metal on the rotors to turning them.

theoretically, there's nothing wrong with machining the disks, provided
they remain within spec. but the problem is that they often end up
being machined slightly off center, and i've seen that many many times.
so, end of the day, i'm with you - i simply replace.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

If it's true that there are "wear indicators" that will make a noise
before there is any real damage, then that solves my problem! I will
happily wait!
But my questions:
Are we SURE my car, a 2007 Honda LX Sedan has this feature of making a
noise first?
And what kind of noise should I expect?
If there is this feature then why would everyone not just wait for
that before changing brakes?
If this is true then it is clear that the Dealer is just trying to
drum up business before its time. Also, I suspect that the "machining
rotors" is also just a way to charge more, since people here seem to
indicate that it is not conclusively efficacious to do so.
p.s. Is this one of those forums where "top posting" is considered
wrong? I always think it's easier to read this way, so sorry if I
offend.

On May 20, 6:29*am, "E. Meyer" > wrote:
> On 5/19/10 10:16 PM, in article ,

> ...*I'm sure he would
> hear the wear indicators before any loud grinding noises & if you get it
> done immediately when the wear indicators start to squeal, there is no
> damage to the rotors.
>
> I don't subscribe to the machining of rotors at every pad change. *I've
> never had a rotor machined since the first disk brakes on the '77 Chevy and
> never suffered any consequences because of it (other than rotors that lasted
> the life of the cars and more money staying in my pocket).

"E. Meyer" > wrote in
:

> On 5/19/10 10:16 PM, in article ,
> "Tegger" > wrote:
>

>>
>> Why don't you just wait until you hear/feel a loud grinding noise
>> coming from the wheels? That way you'll know for 100% certain that
>> the brakes need doing.
>>
>
> There seems to be an unusual edge to your comments here.



It was a figurative roll of the eyes at the OP's suspicion that he was
getting ripped-off just because he's managed to go a bit further on worn
brakes, without problems.



> I'm sure he
> would hear the wear indicators before any loud grinding noises & if
> you get it done immediately when the wear indicators start to squeal,
> there is no damage to the rotors.



The wear indictator is only on the INNER pad. If that pad sticks (common
on Hondas), the OUTER pad will be down to the steel first. And there
goes your rotor.

OP says his dealer reported 2mm left on the pads. That's pad-change
time. Sure you'll get a little bit more mileage out of the pads, but you
run a serious rusk of damage to those $90 rotors, especially at the
leading edges of the pads, which wear thinnest.



>
> I don't subscribe to the machining of rotors at every pad change.



But, as I explained, /Honda/ does. Honda specifically instructs its
dealers to skim the rotors (on-car) at every pad-change. The reason for
this is to avoid expensive comebacks.

A home grease monkey isn't going to get angry at himself if his brakes
vibrate soon after a pad change, but when an owner has spent a tidy sum
getting a pro to do the work. you can be certain he's going to show up
at the service desk, and angry.



> I've never had a rotor machined since the first disk brakes on the '77
> Chevy and never suffered any consequences because of it (other than
> rotors that lasted the life of the cars and more money staying in my
> pocket).
>


Honda brakes are notoriously poorly-designed, IMHO. They need more
attention than most.


--
Tegger

wrote in
:

> If it's true that there are "wear indicators" that will make a noise
> before there is any real damage, then that solves my problem! I will
> happily wait!


But the indicator is only on the INNER pad. If the OUTER pad wears
first, you're screwed. All it takes is the leading-edge of the pad-
backing to touch the rotor, and the rotor is damaged. Those rotors are
$90 each, plus installation.



> But my questions:
> Are we SURE my car, a 2007 Honda LX Sedan has this feature of making a
> noise first?
> And what kind of noise should I expect?


Embarrassingly-loud squealing if the inner pad wears first; loud
grinding and vibration if the outer pad wears first.



> If there is this feature then why would everyone not just wait for
> that before changing brakes?



Because that's a good way of risking damage to your rotors. Those wear
indicators are not nearly as reliable as they'd have you believe.

Brake pads wear just like bicycle brake pads: thinnest at their leading
edges, thickest at their trailing edges.




> If this is true then it is clear that the Dealer is just trying to
> drum up business before its time. Also, I suspect that the "machining
> rotors" is also just a way to charge more, since people here seem to
> indicate that it is not conclusively efficacious to do so.



Honda specfically instructs its dealers to turn the rotors with every
pad change. There is a good reason for the instruction, too.




> p.s. Is this one of those forums where "top posting" is considered
> wrong? I always think it's easier to read this way, so sorry if I
> offend.



Just follow the tendency of the thread. If your respondents bottom-post,
then follow suit, to keep things consistent. If they top-post, then top-
post as well.

For top-posters, I prefer to delete all but their latest comments, then
bottom-post to that.


--
Tegger

On 05/20/2010 02:50 PM, Tegger wrote:
<snip>
>
> Honda brakes are notoriously poorly-designed, IMHO.

dude, you cannot be serious. honda brakes are much better at their
primary job, stopping the car quickly and evenly, than most others out
there. including toyota.

now, do they need attention? well, the wheels need to be torqued right
to avoid juddering problems, but that's not the brakes' fault. do they
seize? i've never known a brake that doesn't, if neglected. that's not
possible to design against unless you either have drum brakes or spend a
LOT of money on a different sealing system. bottom line, they're not
"poorly designed". they may not be neglect-proof, but the job for which
they're designed, they do excellently.


> They need more
> attention than most.

relative to? you must be thinking of the rear mechanical/hydraulic
disks on your integra - well, most hondas, by volume, don't have those.
and for those that do, from a performance perspective, they're a smart
solution to the mechanical problems of that role. modern drum/disk
hybrids are probably one step better in terms of reliability, but in
terms of a single application solution, the honda solution gives the
benefits of disk /and/ a hand brake that actually works. unlike many
other previous attempts at that application.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 5/20/10 4:50 PM, in article ,
"Tegger" > wrote:

> "E. Meyer" > wrote in
> :
>
>> On 5/19/10 10:16 PM, in article ,
>> "Tegger" > wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> Why don't you just wait until you hear/feel a loud grinding noise
>>> coming from the wheels? That way you'll know for 100% certain that
>>> the brakes need doing.
>>>
>>
>> There seems to be an unusual edge to your comments here.
>
>
>
> It was a figurative roll of the eyes at the OP's suspicion that he was
> getting ripped-off just because he's managed to go a bit further on worn
> brakes, without problems.
>
>
>
>> I'm sure he
>> would hear the wear indicators before any loud grinding noises & if
>> you get it done immediately when the wear indicators start to squeal,
>> there is no damage to the rotors.
>
>
>
> The wear indictator is only on the INNER pad. If that pad sticks (common
> on Hondas), the OUTER pad will be down to the steel first. And there
> goes your rotor.
>
> OP says his dealer reported 2mm left on the pads. That's pad-change
> time. Sure you'll get a little bit more mileage out of the pads, but you
> run a serious rusk of damage to those $90 rotors, especially at the
> leading edges of the pads, which wear thinnest.
>
>
>
>>
>> I don't subscribe to the machining of rotors at every pad change.
>
>
>
> But, as I explained, /Honda/ does. Honda specifically instructs its
> dealers to skim the rotors (on-car) at every pad-change. The reason for
> this is to avoid expensive comebacks.
>
> A home grease monkey isn't going to get angry at himself if his brakes
> vibrate soon after a pad change, but when an owner has spent a tidy sum
> getting a pro to do the work. you can be certain he's going to show up
> at the service desk, and angry.
>
>
>
>> I've never had a rotor machined since the first disk brakes on the '77
>> Chevy and never suffered any consequences because of it (other than
>> rotors that lasted the life of the cars and more money staying in my
>> pocket).
>>
>
>
> Honda brakes are notoriously poorly-designed, IMHO. They need more
> attention than most.
>

I've never had any problems with un-machined Honda rotors compared with
other makes. This includes '81 Accord, '87 Civic, '95 Integra, '96 Odyssey,
'00 TL, '06 CRV and '08 Odyssey. OK. Honda recommends it, but my experience
says they don't vibrate when you change the pads, the wear is acceptable (at
least 90k miles between pad changes), and I have not experienced a rotor
destroyed because of a stuck caliper eating off the outer pad. I have
experienced a stuck caliper and the wear indicator signaled the wear prior
to any damage.

I do agree that 2mm is time to replace the pads. That's pretty thin.

Turning the rotor only takes away metal and makes the rotor more
likely to warp. If everything is within specification and there are no
excessive scoring (catching finger nails), then there is no need.

However, 2mm left the pads need to be changed. Now. The only problem
is to make sure the tech measured it accurately. I can tell you that's
not always the case. Some would tell you there is less pad material
left than it really has.



On May 20, 8:39*pm, "E. Meyer" > wrote:
> I've never had any problems with un-machined Honda rotors compared with
> other makes. *This includes '81 Accord, '87 Civic, '95 Integra, '96 Odyssey,
> '00 TL, '06 CRV and '08 Odyssey. *OK. Honda recommends it, but my experience
> says they don't vibrate when you change the pads, the wear is acceptable (at
> least 90k miles between pad changes), and I have not experienced a rotor
> destroyed because of a stuck caliper eating off the outer pad. *I have
> experienced a stuck caliper and the wear indicator signaled the wear prior
> to any damage.
>
> I do agree that 2mm is time to replace the pads. *That's pretty thin. *

Yes, pads/rotors are replaced each time together. Sometimes new torque-
to-yield bolts for some high end calipers. But the braking performance
is far superior, and I suppose on the Autobahn that's a must.



On May 20, 8:19*am, jim beam > wrote:
> really depends. *the pads they use on german cars are really high silica
> content and very abrasive. *they munch disks frighteningly fast. *the
> up-side is that you never have any problems with corrosion or uneven
> braking. *and you don't need to machine the disks either. *the down-side
> is that you pretty much always have to replace disks and pads at the
> same time.

On 05/21/2010 08:08 PM, john wrote:
> Yes, pads/rotors are replaced each time together. Sometimes new torque-
> to-yield bolts for some high end calipers. But the braking performance
> is far superior, and I suppose on the Autobahn that's a must.

oh, it's an absolute must - it's illegal to drive a honda on an autobahn
because they don't have them.


>
>
>
> On May 20, 8:19�am, jim > wrote:
>> really depends. �the pads they use on german cars are really high silica
>> content and very abrasive. �they munch disks frighteningly fast. �the
>> up-side is that you never have any problems with corrosion or uneven
>> braking. �and you don't need to machine the disks either. �the down-side
>> is that you pretty much always have to replace disks and pads at the
>> same time.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 05/21/2010 08:04 PM, john wrote:
> Turning the rotor only takes away metal and makes the rotor more
> likely to warp. If everything is within specification and there are no
> excessive scoring (catching finger nails), then there is no need.
>
> However, 2mm left the pads need to be changed. Now. The only problem
> is to make sure the tech measured it accurately. I can tell you that's
> not always the case. Some would tell you there is less pad material
> left than it really has.

really??? you're not having a little laugh with us are you??? it
wouldn't be the time-honored means by which the nations dealership and
brake shop owners may their mcmansion mortgages and put their kids
through college would it???


>
>
>
> On May 20, 8:39�pm, "E. > wrote:
>> I've never had any problems with un-machined Honda rotors compared with
>> other makes. �This includes '81 Accord, '87 Civic, '95 Integra, '96 Odyssey,
>> '00 TL, '06 CRV and '08 Odyssey. �OK. Honda recommends it, but my experience
>> says they don't vibrate when you change the pads, the wear is acceptable (at
>> least 90k miles between pad changes), and I have not experienced a rotor
>> destroyed because of a stuck caliper eating off the outer pad. �I have
>> experienced a stuck caliper and the wear indicator signaled the wear prior
>> to any damage.
>>
>> I do agree that 2mm is time to replace the pads. �That's pretty thin. �
>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum