Interesting Ignition Revelation

I installed a factory new engine and replaced all electrical, ignition and
fuel distribution system components this Dec.-Jan. Never reeally got
everything running right, but acceptable at times. The engine sounded
"restrained" if that's a proper way to describe it, and it had major
hesitations in accleration and was generally low on power. I was at once
tweaking the settings and learning to live with a disappointing outcome to
my restoration.

Then yesterday morning, I was cruising down the Interstate when--*pop-pop*--
total engine failure. Got off to the side of the road, checked all obvious
sources of trouble, distributor cap, wires, plugs in the heads, fuel, etc.,
etc. Nothing appeared out of the ordinary, but the engine would not even
fire.

I was ready to give up; was shaking my head and talking on the cell phone
ready to arrange the tow (this would have been the third tow since engine
replacement) when an amazing thing happened.

A Good Samaritan stopped on the margin behind me and inquired about the
situation. When stuck by the roadside, I ususally greet the arrival of the
well-meaning motorist with a mixture of gratitude and dismay, as usually the
well-intentioned person would like to help but knows nothing whatsoever
about VWs. In this case, though, I was lucky, and the volunteer was a VW
expert who performs roadside service.

We proceded with diagnostics of fuel and ignition and eventually removed the
SVDA Distributor with Quadra-Fire electronic ignition and replace with an
old reliable .009. Jockeyed the dist. around a little, beetle fired right
up, and off I went. Now what's interesting about this whole long saga is
that as I was limping back to my shop with the loaner dist., I noticed that
Bug was running like my Beetles of old--snappy acceleration, no hesitation,
no vibration, rattling; no feeling of an engine "restrained" or sluggish. It
was a pleasure to drive.

I'm not condemning electronic ignition, except to say that my reason for
installing it was to maybe make the new engine run better,a nd be more
reliable. In this case, it failed on both counts. It is possible that this
was simply a fluke and that I had a bad distributor/ignition setup right
from the start.

I would appreciated any comments on the merits or demerits of the electronic
(Quadrafire) ignition system, or whether its best to just install a stock
..009 distributor.

Randall Brink

> I installed a factory new engine and replaced all electrical, ignition and
> fuel distribution system components this Dec.-Jan. Never reeally got
> everything running right, but acceptable at times. The engine sounded
> "restrained" if that's a proper way to describe it, and it had major
> hesitations in accleration and was generally low on power. I was at once
> tweaking the settings and learning to live with a disappointing outcome to
> my restoration.
>
> Then yesterday morning, I was cruising down the Interstate when--*pop-pop*--
> total engine failure. Got off to the side of the road, checked all obvious
> sources of trouble, distributor cap, wires, plugs in the heads, fuel, etc.,
> etc. Nothing appeared out of the ordinary, but the engine would not even
> fire.
>
> I was ready to give up; was shaking my head and talking on the cell phone
> ready to arrange the tow (this would have been the third tow since engine
> replacement) when an amazing thing happened.
>
> A Good Samaritan stopped on the margin behind me and inquired about the
> situation. When stuck by the roadside, I ususally greet the arrival of the
> well-meaning motorist with a mixture of gratitude and dismay, as usually the
> well-intentioned person would like to help but knows nothing whatsoever
> about VWs. In this case, though, I was lucky, and the volunteer was a VW
> expert who performs roadside service.
>
> We proceded with diagnostics of fuel and ignition and eventually removed the
> SVDA Distributor with Quadra-Fire electronic ignition and replace with an
> old reliable .009. Jockeyed the dist. around a little, beetle fired right
> up, and off I went. Now what's interesting about this whole long saga is
> that as I was limping back to my shop with the loaner dist., I noticed that
> Bug was running like my Beetles of old--snappy acceleration, no hesitation,
> no vibration, rattling; no feeling of an engine "restrained" or sluggish. It
> was a pleasure to drive.
>
> I'm not condemning electronic ignition, except to say that my reason for
> installing it was to maybe make the new engine run better,a nd be more
> reliable. In this case, it failed on both counts. It is possible that this
> was simply a fluke and that I had a bad distributor/ignition setup right
> from the start.
>
> I would appreciated any comments on the merits or demerits of the electronic
> (Quadrafire) ignition system, or whether its best to just install a stock
> .009 distributor.

a .009 is NOT a stock distributor -- is a mechanical distributor -- meaning that
the advance timing device is mechanically driven, not vacuum driven!

a stock VW distributor is vacuum driven. the electronic distributor is more than
likely a Vacuum Advance as well!!

I, myself like the .009 for all pancakes!

BBA

As a matter of fact, I think I have an old centrifugal/mecjhanical driven
distributor, with no vacuum canister. Perhaps I should polish it up and use
it!

Do you have an opinion as to the benefitsof the mechanical over the vacuum
advance?

Randall Brink

"Billy Bad Assr©" > wrote in message
...
>> I installed a factory new engine and replaced all electrical, ignition
>> and
>> fuel distribution system components this Dec.-Jan. Never reeally got
>> everything running right, but acceptable at times. The engine sounded
>> "restrained" if that's a proper way to describe it, and it had major
>> hesitations in accleration and was generally low on power. I was at once
>> tweaking the settings and learning to live with a disappointing outcome
>> to
>> my restoration.
>>
>> Then yesterday morning, I was cruising down the Interstate
>> when--*pop-pop*--
>> total engine failure. Got off to the side of the road, checked all
>> obvious
>> sources of trouble, distributor cap, wires, plugs in the heads, fuel,
>> etc.,
>> etc. Nothing appeared out of the ordinary, but the engine would not even
>> fire.
>>
>> I was ready to give up; was shaking my head and talking on the cell phone
>> ready to arrange the tow (this would have been the third tow since engine
>> replacement) when an amazing thing happened.
>>
>> A Good Samaritan stopped on the margin behind me and inquired about the
>> situation. When stuck by the roadside, I ususally greet the arrival of
>> the
>> well-meaning motorist with a mixture of gratitude and dismay, as usually
>> the
>> well-intentioned person would like to help but knows nothing whatsoever
>> about VWs. In this case, though, I was lucky, and the volunteer was a VW
>> expert who performs roadside service.
>>
>> We proceded with diagnostics of fuel and ignition and eventually removed
>> the
>> SVDA Distributor with Quadra-Fire electronic ignition and replace with an
>> old reliable .009. Jockeyed the dist. around a little, beetle fired right
>> up, and off I went. Now what's interesting about this whole long saga is
>> that as I was limping back to my shop with the loaner dist., I noticed
>> that
>> Bug was running like my Beetles of old--snappy acceleration, no
>> hesitation,
>> no vibration, rattling; no feeling of an engine "restrained" or sluggish.
>> It
>> was a pleasure to drive.
>>
>> I'm not condemning electronic ignition, except to say that my reason for
>> installing it was to maybe make the new engine run better,a nd be more
>> reliable. In this case, it failed on both counts. It is possible that
>> this
>> was simply a fluke and that I had a bad distributor/ignition setup right
>> from the start.
>>
>> I would appreciated any comments on the merits or demerits of the
>> electronic
>> (Quadrafire) ignition system, or whether its best to just install a stock
>> .009 distributor.
>
> a .009 is NOT a stock distributor -- is a mechanical distributor --
> meaning that
> the advance timing device is mechanically driven, not vacuum driven!
>
> a stock VW distributor is vacuum driven. the electronic distributor is
> more than
> likely a Vacuum Advance as well!!
>
> I, myself like the .009 for all pancakes!
>
> BBA
>
>

I use the 009 with electronic system (I've used different types of
pointless systems). One interresting note is after the installation
last year in the Puma it ran sluggish and seemed to float above 3800rpm.
It was an old system I got years ago from JC Whitney with an 009 which
had a seperate module mounted on the firewall. Since I had nothing to
lose, I called JCW which gave me the factory number. They told me this
was very common in electronic ignitions if the wires from the pick-up
were doubled over each other, looped or wraped to close to each other or
around the dist itself as it sets up a magnetic field of its own which
distrupts the signal and only grows stronger as the RPM increases. Sure
enough, that was the problem. Works great at all rpms now.

href="http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4025706&a=30209382&vt=vp">Den's
1977 Puma</a>

That is extremely interesting, because in my case, I had wires rather
indiscriminately routed and overlappiong, and didn't give any thought to it
at all--yet it makes sense electronically when you think of the very high
voltage that passes through from the alternator, and particularly, the coil!

I'm now wondering if my compufire components are fried, or just failed went
down at that particular time due to a overvoltage or voltage field
disturbance.

Randall Brink



"Dennis Wik" > wrote in message
...
>I use the 009 with electronic system (I've used different types of
> pointless systems). One interresting note is after the installation
> last year in the Puma it ran sluggish and seemed to float above 3800rpm.
> It was an old system I got years ago from JC Whitney with an 009 which
> had a seperate module mounted on the firewall. Since I had nothing to
> lose, I called JCW which gave me the factory number. They told me this
> was very common in electronic ignitions if the wires from the pick-up
> were doubled over each other, looped or wraped to close to each other or
> around the dist itself as it sets up a magnetic field of its own which
> distrupts the signal and only grows stronger as the RPM increases. Sure
> enough, that was the problem. Works great at all rpms now.
>
> href="http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4025706&a=30209382&vt=vp">Den's
> 1977 Puma</a>
>

"Billy Bad Assr©" > wrote in message
...

> a .009 is NOT a stock distributor -- is a mechanical distributor --
> meaning that
> the advance timing device is mechanically driven, not vacuum driven!
>
> a stock VW distributor is vacuum driven. the electronic distributor is
> more than
> likely a Vacuum Advance as well!!

No, there is a combination vacuum and mechanical advance.

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:33:01 -0800, "Randall Brink"
> scribbled this interesting note:

>As a matter of fact, I think I have an old centrifugal/mecjhanical driven
>distributor, with no vacuum canister. Perhaps I should polish it up and use
>it!
>
>Do you have an opinion as to the benefitsof the mechanical over the vacuum
>advance?


Here's one place to read up on the pro's and con's:
http://www.w-p-c.com/buggysdda.htm

Here's a good place to "learn up" on things:
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm

Here's another:
http://www.ramva.tk/

And if all else fails, you can search for a day or two he
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...ircooled?hl=en
and read all you want about air cooled VWs.

You'll get all kinds of opinions about those 009 units. More than one
flame war has raged over those. Suffice it to say that it seems most
new units are garbage, all 009s were meant to be used in industrial
applications originally, and your car originally came with a
combination vacuum/mechanical advance unit of one kind or another.


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

compufires die in 009s as commonly as vac advance.
Which distributor it was in has nothing to do with it.

The SVDA is 10X better then a 009, you'll see after you get the lemon
Compufire replaced.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

"Randall Brink" > wrote in message
...
> That is extremely interesting, because in my case, I had wires rather
> indiscriminately routed and overlappiong, and didn't give any thought to
it
> at all--yet it makes sense electronically when you think of the very high
> voltage that passes through from the alternator, and particularly, the
coil!
>
> I'm now wondering if my compufire components are fried, or just failed
went
> down at that particular time due to a overvoltage or voltage field
> disturbance.
>
> Randall Brink
>
>
>
> "Dennis Wik" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I use the 009 with electronic system (I've used different types of
> > pointless systems). One interresting note is after the installation
> > last year in the Puma it ran sluggish and seemed to float above 3800rpm.
> > It was an old system I got years ago from JC Whitney with an 009 which
> > had a seperate module mounted on the firewall. Since I had nothing to
> > lose, I called JCW which gave me the factory number. They told me this
> > was very common in electronic ignitions if the wires from the pick-up
> > were doubled over each other, looped or wraped to close to each other or
> > around the dist itself as it sets up a magnetic field of its own which
> > distrupts the signal and only grows stronger as the RPM increases. Sure
> > enough, that was the problem. Works great at all rpms now.
> >
> >
href="http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4025706&a=30209382&vt=vp"
>Den's
> > 1977 Puma</a>
> >
>
>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:30:08 -0800 "Randall Brink"
> wrote:

>I installed a factory new engine and replaced all electrical, ignition and
>fuel distribution system components this Dec.-Jan. Never reeally got
>everything running right, but acceptable at times. The engine sounded
>"restrained" if that's a proper way to describe it, and it had major
>hesitations in accleration and was generally low on power. I was at once
>tweaking the settings and learning to live with a disappointing outcome to
>my restoration.

This actually sounds like the classic symptom of no advance.

>We proceded with diagnostics of fuel and ignition and eventually removed the
>SVDA Distributor with Quadra-Fire electronic ignition and replace with an
>old reliable .009. Jockeyed the dist. around a little, beetle fired right
>up, and off I went. Now what's interesting about this whole long saga is
>that as I was limping back to my shop with the loaner dist., I noticed that
>Bug was running like my Beetles of old--snappy acceleration, no hesitation,
>no vibration, rattling; no feeling of an engine "restrained" or sluggish. It
>was a pleasure to drive.

It COULD be that the electronic ignition was malfunctioning, but I
would expect that to give you different symptoms. I think it's more
likely that the thing that made the difference was that the loaner
distributor had a functioning advance.

Have you checked the advance in your own dist? What kind of advance
does it have? If you were using a vacuum advance dist with a carb that
it did not come with, then this could also be the problem. The vacuum
advance curve is matched to the vacuum provided at the vacuum port.
Not all ports are the same.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

"jjs" <john@xstafford.net> wrote in message
...
> "Billy Bad Assr©" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > a .009 is NOT a stock distributor -- is a mechanical distributor --
> > meaning that
> > the advance timing device is mechanically driven, not vacuum driven!
> >
> > a stock VW distributor is vacuum driven. the electronic distributor is
> > more than
> > likely a Vacuum Advance as well!!
>
> No, there is a combination vacuum and mechanical advance.

yes there are several combo designs-- more than likely he doesn't have one - he
would NOT have noticed much of a positive improvement using a .009 Distributor!!

--
BBA
°?°
BBA's RC Site - http://www.billybadassrc.com
When Privacy Matters -- http://www.epic.org