1992 Honda Accord Clutch fluid leak

I've got a 1992 Accord with a leak somewhere - I replaced the master
cylinder last week (it was leaking onto the pedal floor) and, after
bleeding and adjusting the pedal/master cylinder piston height, the
pedal finally retracts. The clutch pedal was acting funny in two ways:
1) occasionally doesn't retract, especially when I first shift, and 2)
is often harder to push down than before (it feels new).

Today, I couldn't shift at an intersection. The clutch went in too
easy, shift into first, pulled out of first, pedal had far less
resistance. Then, another shift more, and after that, the pedal stayed
on the floor, the clutch not engaged. There is no pressure in the line.

There was also no clutch fluid. It (all) leaked somewhere... at the
slave, a line, or the reservoir hose, etc.. I don't know because I
spilled a lot when I replaced the master. But, my question is this: if
the pressure on the system changed (because of the pedal adjustment)
could I have blown a seal somewhere (in the slave)?

If you have any idea where the leak may be, let me know.

Thanks!

wrote in
oups.com:

> I've got a 1992 Accord with a leak somewhere - I replaced the master
> cylinder last week (it was leaking onto the pedal floor) and, after
> bleeding and adjusting the pedal/master cylinder piston height, the
> pedal finally retracts. The clutch pedal was acting funny in two ways:
> 1) occasionally doesn't retract, especially when I first shift, and 2)
> is often harder to push down than before (it feels new).


Did you adjust the pushrod clearance?


>
> Today, I couldn't shift at an intersection. The clutch went in too
> easy, shift into first, pulled out of first, pedal had far less
> resistance. Then, another shift more, and after that, the pedal stayed
> on the floor, the clutch not engaged. There is no pressure in the
> line.
>
> There was also no clutch fluid. It (all) leaked somewhere... at the
> slave, a line, or the reservoir hose, etc.. I don't know because I
> spilled a lot when I replaced the master. But, my question is this: if
> the pressure on the system changed (because of the pedal adjustment)
> could I have blown a seal somewhere (in the slave)?
>
> If you have any idea where the leak may be, let me know.
>


If fluid isn't leaking out the bottom of the master cylinder reservoir,
it's probably the slave cylinder.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

> > I've got a 1992 Accord with a leak somewhere - I replaced the master
> > cylinder last week (it was leaking onto the pedal floor) and, after
> > bleeding and adjusting the pedal/master cylinder piston height, the
> > pedal finally retracts. The clutch pedal was acting funny in two ways:
> > 1) occasionally doesn't retract, especially when I first shift, and 2)
> > is often harder to push down than before (it feels new).
>
>
> Did you adjust the pushrod clearance?
>

Is that the U-bracket that's attached to the piston in the master
cylinder? Yes I moved that towards the end of the rod. There's barely
any freeplay on the pedal at this point; the more I move the bracket
towards the engine compartment, the more likely the pedal won't
retract.

I'll check the slave cylinder. Would it leak out the rubber boot?

wrote in ups.com:

>> > I've got a 1992 Accord with a leak somewhere - I replaced the master
>> > cylinder last week (it was leaking onto the pedal floor) and, after
>> > bleeding and adjusting the pedal/master cylinder piston height, the
>> > pedal finally retracts. The clutch pedal was acting funny in two ways:
>> > 1) occasionally doesn't retract, especially when I first shift, and 2)
>> > is often harder to push down than before (it feels new).
>>
>>
>> Did you adjust the pushrod clearance?
>>
>
> Is that the U-bracket that's attached to the piston in the master
> cylinder? Yes I moved that towards the end of the rod. There's barely
> any freeplay on the pedal at this point;




Oh, the perils of performing work on your car without
a proper shop manual...

There are TWO places adjustment is performed!

See he
<http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/manual_scans/accord/93-accord_clutch_adjustment.pdf>
(Yes it's a '93, but your car is the same.)



>
> I'll check the slave cylinder. Would it leak out the rubber boot?
>
>



Yes. Peel the dust boot back from the cylinder body. Is it wet inside?



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

> See he
> <http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/manual_scans/accord/93-accord_clutch_adjustment.pdf>

What does it mean to "turn the push rod in or out to get the specified
stroke and height"? Do you turn the rod itself (not the nut?)

>
> Yes. Peel the dust boot back from the cylinder body. Is it wet inside?
>

It's not that wet, but there's some fluid in there.

wrote in
oups.com:

>
>> See he
>> <http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/.../93-accord_clu
>> tch_adjustment.pdf>
>
> What does it mean to "turn the push rod in or out to get the specified
> stroke and height"? Do you turn the rod itself (not the nut?)



That's right. The clevis (the fork thing) has another nut welded to it.
You're turning the rod into or out of the clevis's nut. (Brake master
cylinder pushrods are adjusted a similar way.)

Turning the rod INto the clevis will increase freeplay. Turning the rod
OUT of the clevis will decrease it. I'd advise putting a dab of Wite-Out on
the rod so you know how much it's been turned. Space is very tight under
there, and it's hard to control rotation.

The idea here is that the bolt that has locknut "A" is just a stopper that
prevents possible overtravel. You have to move that out of the way so the
actual pushrod clearance isn't affected by it when you turn the pushrod.

Pushrod freeplay is NOT the same thing as release bearing freeplay. If you
push the pedal with your fingers VERY VERY lightly (with one or two
fingers), you should feel 1/16" or so of VERY light movement, after which
the pedal suddenly gets harder. That's the start of release bearing
freeplay, which is normally about a half-inch. After that the pedal gets
really hard, and that's when the release bearing has contacted the clutch
pressure plate.

You need to make sure the first freeplay is about (1/16" to 1/4"). The
smaller the better, so long as there is *some*.

Once the first freeplay is set, you then move the bolt with locknut "A"
down so it just touches the rubber bumper, then give it a tiny bit of
preload (the 1/4 extra turn) to compensate for deformation of the rubbrer
stopper.

Hope this makes sense.



>
>>
>> Yes. Peel the dust boot back from the cylinder body. Is it wet
>> inside?
>>
>
> It's not that wet, but there's some fluid in there.
>


It should be bone dry.

If I were you, I'd clean off all the hydraulic connections (including
inside that dust boot) with spray brake cleaner, then observe very
carefully for fresh leaks.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

> > What does it mean to "turn the push rod in or out to get the specified
> > stroke and height"? Do you turn the rod itself (not the nut?)That's right. The clevis (the fork thing) has another nut welded to it.
> You're turning the rod into or out of the clevis's nut. (Brake master
> cylinder pushrods are adjusted a similar way.)

I see... so, that's why the clevis is threaded also; and the other nut
on the rod is just for stability? (locknut B on the diagram)

So, my next question is this: bleeding is touchy. I don't really
understand the whole bleeding process on the master cylinder. Do I
adjust the pedal completely first, then, I can bleed? Or is there any
pre-bleeding necessary?

> Once the first freeplay is set, you then move the bolt with locknut "A"
> down so it just touches the rubber bumper, then give it a tiny bit of
> preload (the 1/4 extra turn) to compensate for deformation of the rubbrer
> stopper.

This is also before bleeding?

> If I were you, I'd clean off all the hydraulic connections (including
> inside that dust boot) with spray brake cleaner, then observe very
> carefully for fresh leaks.


Okay. Thanks again for the help. I may need more...

wrote in
oups.com:

>> > What does it mean to "turn the push rod in or out to get the
>> > specified stroke and height"? Do you turn the rod itself (not the
>> > nut?)That's right. The clevis (the fork thing) has another nut
>> > welded to it.
>>
>> You're turning the rod into or out of the clevis's nut. (Brake master
>> cylinder pushrods are adjusted a similar way.)
>
> I see... so, that's why the clevis is threaded also;



It's not. The NUT welded inside it is threaded.



> and the other nut
> on the rod is just for stability? (locknut B on the diagram)



Locknut "B" is what keeps things from shifting after the fact. As the
name suggests, it LOCKS the works together once you've arranged them
just so.

Get underneath with a flashlight and study the mechanism. It's quite
simple.



>
> So, my next question is this: bleeding is touchy. I don't really
> understand the whole bleeding process on the master cylinder. Do I
> adjust the pedal completely first, then, I can bleed? Or is there any
> pre-bleeding necessary?



Bleeding is simple as well. The term "bleeding" simply describes the act
of replacing old fluid with new.

Freeplay adjustment is not affected in any way by bleeding (or lack
thereof).

If it makes you feel better, do the adjustment first, then bleed. Or the
other way around. Your choice.



>
>> Once the first freeplay is set, you then move the bolt with locknut
>> "A" down so it just touches the rubber bumper, then give it a tiny
>> bit of preload (the 1/4 extra turn) to compensate for deformation of
>> the rubbrer stopper.
>
> This is also before bleeding?



Not related. Do at any time.



>
>> If I were you, I'd clean off all the hydraulic connections (including
>> inside that dust boot) with spray brake cleaner, then observe very
>> carefully for fresh leaks.
>
>
> Okay. Thanks again for the help. I may need more...
>
>



I'm ready...

Y'know what I should do? Make a series of videos showing the very acts
described here.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

> It's not. The NUT welded inside it is threaded.

I see that now.

> Get underneath with a flashlight and study the mechanism. It's quite
> simple.

I've spent a lot of time under there... but I only adjusted the clevis.


> If it makes you feel better, do the adjustment first, then bleed. Or the
> other way around. Your choice.

I'm asking this because the manual (Haynes) doesn't mention pedal
adjustment after replacing the master cylinder (only bleeding); I
*assumed* I'd need to put the new master cylinder clevis at the same
distance from the cylinder as the old one; but there was no retraction
on the pedal after bleeding when I did this.

That's been my problem. To get the clutch pedal to retract in the first
place, after replacing the master cylinder, I had to 1) move the clevis
closer to the cylinder, 2) bleed the system, and 3) move the clevis
back to allow the pedal to retract.

So a perfect pedal adjustment should make the pedal retract after the
bleed, before, or both? I just need to know what to look for. Thanks
again.

wrote in
ups.com:

>> It's not. The NUT welded inside it is threaded.
>
> I see that now.
>
>> Get underneath with a flashlight and study the mechanism. It's quite
>> simple.
>
> I've spent a lot of time under there... but I only adjusted the
> clevis.
>
>
>> If it makes you feel better, do the adjustment first, then bleed. Or
>> the other way around. Your choice.
>
> I'm asking this because the manual (Haynes) doesn't mention pedal
> adjustment after replacing the master cylinder (only bleeding);



Of course. It's Haynes, after all.


> I
> *assumed* I'd need to put the new master cylinder clevis at the same
> distance from the cylinder as the old one;



You'd think so, but that's not the case, unfortunately. There are
manufacturing tolerances to compensate for.



> but there was no retraction
> on the pedal after bleeding when I did this.
>
> That's been my problem. To get the clutch pedal to retract in the
> first place, after replacing the master cylinder, I had to 1) move the
> clevis closer to the cylinder, 2) bleed the system, and 3) move the
> clevis back to allow the pedal to retract.
>
> So a perfect pedal adjustment should make the pedal retract after the
> bleed, before, or both? I just need to know what to look for. Thanks
> again.
>
>



Perfect adjustment ought to make the pedal behave as it was designed to,
and needs to be done in *any* case.

The purpose of the adjustment is to ensure the fluid return port opens
up again, to allow fluid to eject back into the master cylinder
reservoir so the release bearing can retract away from the pressure
plate.

Now all the foregong assumes your problems are due to poor adjustment.
If in fact the problems are due to a major fluid leak instead, then
adjustment won't solve anything.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/