A Restatment of the obvious Small cars are more dangerous: Newinsurance study proves you're safer in a bigger car and reveals which vehicleshave the highest injury rates

On 9/27/2012 7:53 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

> I've actually upgraded the headlamps on all the vehicles that I've
> owned that I could, save for two ('02 VW and '09 BMW) that actually
> had decent headlamps out of the box.

I'm surprised you didn't. Even if the headlamps were decent, they
probably would pale in comparison to the corresponding ECE compliant
headlamp assemblies. At least that was my experience with the Audi.

> In many cases ditching the stock headlamps for Euro equivalents
> provided a noticeable improvement in seeing after dark, despite the
> bleating of NHTSA that they don't provide enough uplight to
> illuminate unlighted overhead signs when on low beam (a vanishingly
> rare phenomenon anyway, IME) In two vehicles I've gone full-boat
> upgrade - a 12AWG relay harness combined with Cibie H4s - with
> excellent results. Aimed properly, they are LESS offensive to
> oncoming traffic on low beam than sealed beams, yet provide vastly
> improved vision on both low and high beam - even with ECE-compliant
> 55/60W bulbs.

I was overseas recently and was observing traffic while riding the bus
after dark. I was amazed at the lack of glare from the opposing
traffic's headlamps. I've seen the same from my own car when I had my
brother driving it while following me (no glare at all).

> There's plenty of discussion out there, including in this very
> newsgroup, before it turned into a cesspool and troll-fest.

Yeah, that's too bad. 2000-2008 had a number of good threads. From
what I've read in the archives, it was just as good in the mid to late
'90s.

On Sep 27, 11:54*pm, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> On 9/26/2012 8:05 AM, gpsman wrote:
> There are many factors that are equally
> > likely, including suboptimal sign placement and speed in excess of
> > sight distance.
>
> Sign placement is also standardized (at least on major roads). *The OP
> wasn't referring to a particular sign or set of signs, leading me to
> believe that he was referring to signs in general.

It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list.

> Also, very few
> people will try to drive faster if they're trying to read signs that are
> difficult to read.

Really...?

> >> So rather than evading my
> >> question, please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>
> > There is no discernible difference in the manners of operation of
> > motorists daylight v. dark.
>
> Cite?

Cite? You're hilarious. What differences do you discern...?

> > Duh. *The perception headlamps are "weak and poorly aimed" is
> > subjective.
>
> The fact that the OP stated that he was having reading road signs at
> night indicates that there's an objective, not subjective, problem.

Geezus... To have a discussion with you requires teaching you to read
at the ****in' 3rd grade level:
http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...nd-subjective/

How did you eliminate the possibility his night vision is
deteriorating... or his headlights are nearing the end of their
lives... or he's just too stupid to clean the lenses... or, he's just
full of ****...?

> I've driven vehicles with poor headlights and I have trouble seeing lane
> markings and signs as well in those cases.

Don't define "poor headlights"; the more specific you get, the more
genuine interest in the subject you appear to have.

> > What evidence can you provide to support your assertion...?
>
> A side by side comparison between a FMVSS 108 standard headlamp on the
> drivers side and a ECE compliant headlamp on the passenger side. *Same
> set of bulbs. *The left side of the illuminated area appeared to be
> dimmed out. *The high beam on the left side appeared to be much more
> diffuse and dimmer versus the passenger side. *The right side of the
> cutoff was much lower for the FMVSS compliant headlamp. *Also, FWIW, the
> FMVSS headlamp assembly had been sitting in a box in storage for a
> decade while the ECE headlamp assembly has been mounted in the car for
> the same amount of time.

That's "different", not objectively "better".

I'll bet rad was a lot more fun for you and Nate when you better than
perfectly ignorant couldn't think your way out of a fart cloud
****wits were using it as a mutual admiration society.

Those days are over, you ought to move on.
-----

- gpsman

On 09/28/2012 12:04 AM, Arif Khokar wrote:
> On 9/27/2012 7:53 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> I've actually upgraded the headlamps on all the vehicles that I've
>> owned that I could, save for two ('02 VW and '09 BMW) that actually
>> had decent headlamps out of the box.
>
> I'm surprised you didn't. Even if the headlamps were decent, they
> probably would pale in comparison to the corresponding ECE compliant
> headlamp assemblies. At least that was my experience with the Audi.

Well, I have to admit that I was looking to swap to E-codes in the
VeeDub (wanted ones without fog lights, because I was going to use low
mounted Hella fogs to replace the stock ones in the headlight housings)
but I ended up selling the whole car. And I've had the Bimmer for less
than a month Oh, and have you priced BMW HIDs? Those might stay
stock for a while too, because I've been spending money like a drunken
sailor on the "gotta-haves" (spare tire kit, winter wheels and tires,
new Thule feet and fit kit, Euro headlight switch, rubber floor mats,
etc. etc. etc.) But the BMW lights are auto-leveling and also have
headlamp washers which makes me feel better about using them. (I think
I need to adjust them though, I can tell one cutoff is slightly higher
than the other.) Honestly, I haven't researched, they might be
"harmonized" ECE/DOT because the beam pattern appears quite good
subjectively; only thing I don't like is the "fringe" at the cutoff that
I guess is typical of HIDs.

I do have Cibie e-codes on the Heep I got last year and have lent it to
two friends since doing so, both have commented on the excellent
headlights

>
>> In many cases ditching the stock headlamps for Euro equivalents
>> provided a noticeable improvement in seeing after dark, despite the
>> bleating of NHTSA that they don't provide enough uplight to
>> illuminate unlighted overhead signs when on low beam (a vanishingly
>> rare phenomenon anyway, IME) In two vehicles I've gone full-boat
>> upgrade - a 12AWG relay harness combined with Cibie H4s - with
>> excellent results. Aimed properly, they are LESS offensive to
>> oncoming traffic on low beam than sealed beams, yet provide vastly
>> improved vision on both low and high beam - even with ECE-compliant
>> 55/60W bulbs.
>
> I was overseas recently and was observing traffic while riding the bus
> after dark. I was amazed at the lack of glare from the opposing
> traffic's headlamps. I've seen the same from my own car when I had my
> brother driving it while following me (no glare at all).

Indeed, I had the same experience when moving once, I ended up driving
my company car and someone else was following me in my 944 which also
had E-codes, it was amazing how dim the headlights looked in my rear
view mirror - but how bright they were where it mattered, on the road,
from behind the wheel.

>
>> There's plenty of discussion out there, including in this very
>> newsgroup, before it turned into a cesspool and troll-fest.
>
> Yeah, that's too bad. 2000-2008 had a number of good threads. From
> what I've read in the archives, it was just as good in the mid to late
> '90s.

Yeah, honestly, I think I started reading only a couple years before the
downward spiral started. I read a lot of forums and not too many
newsgroups now; the forums I read are all non-automotive or
vehicle-specific though. I kind of liked RAD because it was "the"
driving newsgroup meaning that back in the day anyone searching for
driving would eventually end up there.

nate



--
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http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 09/29/2012 05:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 09/28/2012 12:04 AM, Arif Khokar wrote:
>> On 9/27/2012 7:53 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> I've actually upgraded the headlamps on all the vehicles that I've
>>> owned that I could, save for two ('02 VW and '09 BMW) that actually
>>> had decent headlamps out of the box.
>>
>> I'm surprised you didn't. Even if the headlamps were decent, they
>> probably would pale in comparison to the corresponding ECE compliant
>> headlamp assemblies. At least that was my experience with the Audi.
>
> Well, I have to admit that I was looking to swap to E-codes in the
> VeeDub (wanted ones without fog lights, because I was going to use low
> mounted Hella fogs to replace the stock ones in the headlight housings)
> but I ended up selling the whole car. And I've had the Bimmer for less
> than a month Oh, and have you priced BMW HIDs? Those might stay
> stock for a while too, because I've been spending money like a drunken
> sailor on the "gotta-haves" (spare tire kit, winter wheels and tires,
> new Thule feet and fit kit, Euro headlight switch, rubber floor mats,
> etc. etc. etc.) But the BMW lights are auto-leveling and also have
> headlamp washers which makes me feel better about using them. (I think
> I need to adjust them though, I can tell one cutoff is slightly higher
> than the other.) Honestly, I haven't researched, they might be
> "harmonized" ECE/DOT because the beam pattern appears quite good
> subjectively; only thing I don't like is the "fringe" at the cutoff that
> I guess is typical of HIDs.
>
> I do have Cibie e-codes on the Heep I got last year and have lent it to
> two friends since doing so, both have commented on the excellent
> headlights
>
>>
>>> In many cases ditching the stock headlamps for Euro equivalents
>>> provided a noticeable improvement in seeing after dark, despite the
>>> bleating of NHTSA that they don't provide enough uplight to
>>> illuminate unlighted overhead signs when on low beam (a vanishingly
>>> rare phenomenon anyway, IME) In two vehicles I've gone full-boat
>>> upgrade - a 12AWG relay harness combined with Cibie H4s - with
>>> excellent results. Aimed properly, they are LESS offensive to
>>> oncoming traffic on low beam than sealed beams, yet provide vastly
>>> improved vision on both low and high beam - even with ECE-compliant
>>> 55/60W bulbs.
>>
>> I was overseas recently and was observing traffic while riding the bus
>> after dark. I was amazed at the lack of glare from the opposing
>> traffic's headlamps. I've seen the same from my own car when I had my
>> brother driving it while following me (no glare at all).
>
> Indeed, I had the same experience when moving once, I ended up driving
> my company car and someone else was following me in my 944 which also
> had E-codes, it was amazing how dim the headlights looked in my rear
> view mirror - but how bright they were where it mattered, on the road,
> from behind the wheel.
>
>>
>>> There's plenty of discussion out there, including in this very
>>> newsgroup, before it turned into a cesspool and troll-fest.
>>
>> Yeah, that's too bad. 2000-2008 had a number of good threads. From
>> what I've read in the archives, it was just as good in the mid to late
>> '90s.
>
> Yeah, honestly, I think I started reading only a couple years before the
> downward spiral started. I read a lot of forums and not too many
> newsgroups now; the forums I read are all non-automotive or
> vehicle-specific though. I kind of liked RAD because it was "the"
> driving newsgroup meaning that back in the day anyone searching for
> driving would eventually end up there.
>
> nate
>
>

Now you made me look.

Found this on a forum, where someone was discussing shipping their E92
over to Europe and registering it the

"The projector lens is different too. It has a moulded in ridge at the
cutoff line to diffuse additional light upwards on the USA DOT approved
fixtures because the North American lighting rules require it to
illuminate unlighted overhead road signs and instead of a wide
horizontal dispersion of the light, the DOT version requires a brighter
"hot spot" concentrated towards the center of the beam. This is one
reason USA lighting has so much more glare on the dipped beam compaired
to fixtures intended for the EU.

I would like to know if it is possable to get the European approved
projector lenses to replace the DOT versions. If the lens can be
purchased as a part then I would also be able to send the extra set out
to get them treated with the same antireflective coating found on some
better optical lens like my eyeglasses. I want my car to have green eyes
when the lights are off."

Now we all know forums aren't authoritative sources but it sounds like
the guy knows what he's talking about.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55667

nate



--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
...

If you know anybody who wants a black and pink '55 Studebaker 4 door,
there's a nice one at a dealership in Mena, Arkansas.

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:00:47 -0500, "Jesus Christ" >
wrote in misc.transport.road:

>
>
>"Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
...
>
>If you know anybody who wants a black and pink '55 Studebaker 4 door,
>there's a nice one at a dealership in Mena, Arkansas.

Our local Studebaker dealership gave up on them and went over to Toyota
half a century ago.

On 9/29/2012 5:57 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

> Found this on a forum, where someone was discussing shipping their E92
> over to Europe and registering it the
>
> "The projector lens is different too. It has a moulded in ridge at the
> cutoff line to diffuse additional light upwards on the USA DOT approved
> fixtures because the North American lighting rules require it to
> illuminate unlighted overhead road signs and instead of a wide
> horizontal dispersion of the light, the DOT version requires a brighter
> "hot spot" concentrated towards the center of the beam. This is one
> reason USA lighting has so much more glare on the dipped beam compaired
> to fixtures intended for the EU.

That sounds about right. In fact, that would explain the difference
when I had both types mounted side by side in the same car. Basically,
most of the light is wasted on the hotspot area in the DOT spec
headlamp, making the rest of the illuminated area dimmer overall.

> I would like to know if it is possable to get the European approved
> projector lenses to replace the DOT versions.

It should be simple to swap out.

On 9/29/2012 5:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 09/28/2012 12:04 AM, Arif Khokar wrote:
>> On 9/27/2012 7:53 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> I've actually upgraded the headlamps on all the vehicles that
>>> I've owned that I could, save for two ('02 VW and '09 BMW) that
>>> actually had decent headlamps out of the box.
>>
>> I'm surprised you didn't. Even if the headlamps were decent, they
>> probably would pale in comparison to the corresponding ECE
>> compliant headlamp assemblies. At least that was my experience
>> with the Audi.
>
> Well, I have to admit that I was looking to swap to E-codes in the
> VeeDub (wanted ones without fog lights, because I was going to use
> low mounted Hella fogs to replace the stock ones in the headlight
> housings) but I ended up selling the whole car. And I've had the
> Bimmer for less than a month Oh, and have you priced BMW HIDs?

How much more pricey are they compared to say Audi HIDs. IIRC, the ones
I had were roughly $600 each a decade ago. I think they're around $350
each now (if they're still available for the B5 platform).

> Those might stay stock for a while too, because I've been spending
> money like a drunken sailor on the "gotta-haves" (spare tire kit,
> winter wheels and tires, new Thule feet and fit kit, Euro headlight
> switch, rubber floor mats, etc. etc. etc.) But the BMW lights are
> auto-leveling and also have headlamp washers which makes me feel
> better about using them.

I guess when you get around to getting the e-codes, you should just put
one of them in and try driving around. I'm willing to bet that the
difference will be like night and day.

> (I think I need to adjust them though, I can tell one cutoff is
> slightly higher than the other.) Honestly, I haven't researched,
> they might be "harmonized" ECE/DOT because the beam pattern appears
> quite good subjectively; only thing I don't like is the "fringe" at
> the cutoff that I guess is typical of HIDs.

Yeah, but you won't really notice it while you're driving.

> I do have Cibie e-codes on the Heep I got last year and have lent it
> to two friends since doing so, both have commented on the excellent
> headlights

Yeah, I would like to have some experience with halogen e-codes. I've
only ever driven a car with HID e-codes for the last decade or so.
That's probably why I complain about every other car's headlamps
whenever I get to drive one

On 09/30/2012 12:33 AM, Arif Khokar wrote:
> On 9/29/2012 5:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 09/28/2012 12:04 AM, Arif Khokar wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2012 7:53 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've actually upgraded the headlamps on all the vehicles that
>>>> I've owned that I could, save for two ('02 VW and '09 BMW) that
>>>> actually had decent headlamps out of the box.
>>>
>>> I'm surprised you didn't. Even if the headlamps were decent, they
>>> probably would pale in comparison to the corresponding ECE
>>> compliant headlamp assemblies. At least that was my experience
>>> with the Audi.
>>
>> Well, I have to admit that I was looking to swap to E-codes in the
>> VeeDub (wanted ones without fog lights, because I was going to use
>> low mounted Hella fogs to replace the stock ones in the headlight
>> housings) but I ended up selling the whole car. And I've had the
>> Bimmer for less than a month Oh, and have you priced BMW HIDs?
>
> How much more pricey are they compared to say Audi HIDs. IIRC, the ones
> I had were roughly $600 each a decade ago. I think they're around $350
> each now (if they're still available for the B5 platform).
>

Well, there's one US-spec one on eBay for $380 right now... ebay.de
prices are all over the place but it looks like at least 500 euro for a
pair possibly more

nate

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On 9/25/2012 9:04 AM, Arif Khokar wrote:
> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>
>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>
> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
> the rest of the world.

There is a great variation between legal systems. What I have ranges
from quite poor (1st generation Nissin Frontier) to excellent (Honda
CBR600F4i).

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