327 engine oil lube question

"Ric Seyler" > wrote in message
...
> 'Key wrote:
>
>>"lib" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>
>>>I am taking my 63 SB in for service on Mon. I am trying
>>>to
>>>deal with the ongoing smoke out of tailpipes under
>>>acceleration when leaving a standing start, with 1500 mi.
>>>on complete re-bore and re-build. Per the machine shops
>>>analysis that this is un-burnt fuel, and not un-seated
>>>rings, I am having the timing advanced from 4 deg. btdc
>>>to
>>>8 deg. as they recommended. If the rings need more
>>>friction
>>>to help seat would 10-30wt. or 20wt.oil provide less
>>>lubrication at the cylinder walls( in 55 deg. weather)
>>>than
>>>straight 30wt.? If the timing adv. doesn't improve or
>>>eliminate problem, will have them do a leak-down test on
>>>each hole and see if there is a problem there. Thanx- lib
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>with just "1500 mi. on complete re-bore and re-build".
>>whoever done the job, needs to honor their work...
>>
>>my2¢
>>
>>
> His main problem is the machine shop didn't do the
> assembly.
> Sooo the person that assembled it and the machine shop
> will probably bat
> him back and forth.
> Like we have said a couple times, it could of been the
> machine work OR
> the assembly.
>
> A teardown would be the only way to conclusively know. A
> leakdown test
> will only point to
> a problem, not what is causing the problem.. ie cracked
> rings or gaps
> aligned or the thin oil support
> rings left out (builder), or bad or wrong sized bores
> (machine shop)....
>
> --
> Ric Seyler
> Online Racing: RicSeyler
> GPL Handicap 6.35
>
> http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
> remove -SPAM- from email address
> --------------------------------------


either way ya look at it,
he has a problem and probably won't like the sulution...

my2¢
--
'Key
=====
>

Snip
>>>>to help seat would 10-30wt. or 20wt.oil provide less
>>>>lubrication at the cylinder walls( in 55 deg. weather) than
>>>>straight 30wt.? If the timing adv. doesn't improve or
>>>>eliminate problem, will have them do a leak-down test on
>>>>each hole and see if there is a problem there. Thanx- lib
>>>

I don't feel your timing change will help and if the carb setup does
anything much I'd be surprised but it sure can't hurt to have it setup
on a flow bench. Remember that today's fuel is going to have some
effect on how well your carburetor can be tuned just due to the age of
its design. One thing I noticed on my '64 is the heavy soot that is
left in the carbon channels in the manifold and the choke tube system.
Although that shouldn't affect the way the carburetor works it tells
me it is reacting to the older design different that it use to with
the fuel of the sixties.

Straight 20 weight non detergent and work it, don't beat it, just give
the rings enough drive time that they have a chance to conform to the
cylinders finish.

During our last club outing I followed a '77 that has a total rebuild
on the stock block without a rebore, also a '62 that was bored at
rebuild and both put out a puff of smoke, black, when shifted and hard
acceleration. Nothing major so I ask one of them if my '64 did that as
I couldn't see it and they said, yes, but very slight. My oil usage
for 1,000 miles doesn't show up on the stick, just a drip on the floor
after driving it. A Z06 did about the same thing but I expect that
from any manual transmission equipped vehicle even the newer designs
and also the smaller engines.

>>>
>>>with just "1500 mi. on complete re-bore and re-build".
>>>whoever done the job, needs to honor their work...
>>>
>>>my2¢
>>>
I don't believe there was a re-bore done, I don't remember him saying
the pistons were replaced. My guess would be a hone job to break the
glaze and give the rings some bite to seat them.

Snip
>
> either way ya look at it,
> he has a problem and probably won't like the sulution...
>
> my2¢
> --
> 'Key
> =====
>>
Most likely, and he has the added problem that it was done a long way
from where it is now. He may need to see Judge Judy.

lib wrote:

>Hey Dad, The gentleman who re-timed it also does smog tests. He hooked it up
>to his analyzer, did the readings, before and after he re-set timing and
>showed no change. He said that in his estimation that it should be closer to
>3%. He said that perhaps gasses were being trapped in the mufflers and
>expelled under acceleration. I respect your opinion/ best guess about this
>not being the root of the problem. I have my own doubts, but am hoping we
>are both guessing wrong. I just returned from dropping off the carb. at the
>shop. The gentleman there did a quick look-over and said he was very sure
>that the carb is serviceable, and not toast. I gave him all the info he
>requested and was pleased that the metal tag was still on the body.
>Depending on what parts may need to be replaced, he said some parts for a
>WCFB are more difficult to locate. He had a reasonably clean, but
>cluttered,shop full of carbs. in different stages of repair. He appeared to
>be interested in working on it so we will see how it all plays out- lib
>
>"Dad" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
>>"lib" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>
>>>If the old WCFB is toast, then I'll be seeking the correct replacement
>>>for it. Stay tuned for the next riveting installment of this search for
>>>the truth!- lib
>>>
>>>
>>Can't believe anyone could toast a WCFB, kits are still available and they
>>are a snap to setup. They are also easy to screw up if you don't pay
>>attention and have less than average mechanical ability. Does your
>>information have any reference to what percent of un-burnt fuel is
>>appropriate for a '63 carburetor engine? My off hand guess is that it's
>>not the problem.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Keep your fingers crossed, weirder things have happened. :-)
It really doesn't explain your excessive oil consumption though......

--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35

http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove -SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
"Homer no function beer well without."
- H.J. Simpson

Thanx once again for the feedback. Yes, the block was bored 30 over with new
pistons, rings, cam, etc. The rods and crank were were examined, cleaned,
polished, etc. and re- used. The block/ lower end was re-assembled by my
guy, the heads were re-built by the machine shop. My guy said the machine
shop informed him that using a quart+ of oil in first 1000 mi. is to be
expected and acceptable to them. I find that statement a bit curious at
best. Oh well, the search continues- lib
"Dad" > wrote in message
.. .
> Snip
>>>>>to help seat would 10-30wt. or 20wt.oil provide less
>>>>>lubrication at the cylinder walls( in 55 deg. weather) than
>>>>>straight 30wt.? If the timing adv. doesn't improve or
>>>>>eliminate problem, will have them do a leak-down test on
>>>>>each hole and see if there is a problem there. Thanx- lib
>>>>
>
> I don't feel your timing change will help and if the carb setup does
> anything much I'd be surprised but it sure can't hurt to have it setup on
> a flow bench. Remember that today's fuel is going to have some effect on
> how well your carburetor can be tuned just due to the age of its design.
> One thing I noticed on my '64 is the heavy soot that is left in the carbon
> channels in the manifold and the choke tube system. Although that
> shouldn't affect the way the carburetor works it tells me it is reacting
> to the older design different that it use to with the fuel of the sixties.
>
> Straight 20 weight non detergent and work it, don't beat it, just give the
> rings enough drive time that they have a chance to conform to the
> cylinders finish.
>
> During our last club outing I followed a '77 that has a total rebuild on
> the stock block without a rebore, also a '62 that was bored at rebuild and
> both put out a puff of smoke, black, when shifted and hard acceleration.
> Nothing major so I ask one of them if my '64 did that as I couldn't see it
> and they said, yes, but very slight. My oil usage for 1,000 miles doesn't
> show up on the stick, just a drip on the floor after driving it. A Z06 did
> about the same thing but I expect that from any manual transmission
> equipped vehicle even the newer designs and also the smaller engines.
>
>>>>
>>>>with just "1500 mi. on complete re-bore and re-build".
>>>>whoever done the job, needs to honor their work...
>>>>
>>>>my2¢
>>>>
> I don't believe there was a re-bore done, I don't remember him saying the
> pistons were replaced. My guess would be a hone job to break the glaze and
> give the rings some bite to seat them.
>
> Snip
>>
>> either way ya look at it,
>> he has a problem and probably won't like the sulution...
>>
>> my2¢
>> --
>> 'Key
>> =====
>>>
> Most likely, and he has the added problem that it was done a long way from
> where it is now. He may need to see Judge Judy.
>

On Oct 18, 6:06 pm, "lib" > wrote:
> Thanx once again for the feedback. Yes, the block was bored 30 over with new
> pistons, rings, cam, etc. The rods and crank were were examined, cleaned,
> polished, etc. and re- used. The block/ lower end was re-assembled by my
> guy, the heads were re-built by the machine shop. My guy said the machine
> shop informed him that using a quart+ of oil in first 1000 mi. is to be
> expected and acceptable to them. I find that statement a bit curious at
> best. Oh well, the search continues- lib"Dad" > wrote in message
>
> .. .
>
> > Snip
> >>>>>to help seat would 10-30wt. or 20wt.oil provide less
> >>>>>lubrication at the cylinder walls( in 55 deg. weather) than
> >>>>>straight 30wt.? If the timing adv. doesn't improve or
> >>>>>eliminate problem, will have them do a leak-down test on
> >>>>>each hole and see if there is a problem there. Thanx- lib
>
> > I don't feel your timing change will help and if the carb setup does
> > anything much I'd be surprised but it sure can't hurt to have it setup on
> > a flow bench. Remember that today's fuel is going to have some effect on
> > how well your carburetor can be tuned just due to the age of its design.
> > One thing I noticed on my '64 is the heavy soot that is left in the carbon
> > channels in the manifold and the choke tube system. Although that
> > shouldn't affect the way the carburetor works it tells me it is reacting
> > to the older design different that it use to with the fuel of the sixties.
>
> > Straight 20 weight non detergent and work it, don't beat it, just give the
> > rings enough drive time that they have a chance to conform to the
> > cylinders finish.
>
> > During our last club outing I followed a '77 that has a total rebuild on
> > the stock block without a rebore, also a '62 that was bored at rebuild and
> > both put out a puff of smoke, black, when shifted and hard acceleration.
> > Nothing major so I ask one of them if my '64 did that as I couldn't see it
> > and they said, yes, but very slight. My oil usage for 1,000 miles doesn't
> > show up on the stick, just a drip on the floor after driving it. A Z06 did
> > about the same thing but I expect that from any manual transmission
> > equipped vehicle even the newer designs and also the smaller engines.
>
> >>>>with just "1500 mi. on complete re-bore and re-build".
> >>>>whoever done the job, needs to honor their work...
>
> >>>>my2¢
>
> > I don't believe there was a re-bore done, I don't remember him saying the
> > pistons were replaced. My guess would be a hone job to break the glaze and
> > give the rings some bite to seat them.
>
> > Snip
>
> >> either way ya look at it,
> >> he has a problem and probably won't like the sulution...
>
> >> my2¢
> >> --
> >> 'Key
> >> =====
>
> > Most likely, and he has the added problem that it was done a long way from
> > where it is now. He may need to see Judge Judy.

One thing that happens to the old Carter carbs is wear to the base
where the main butterflies are. The holes in the base, as well as the
shaft, wear and cause a mixture problem. They have a constant pressure
from the return spring and due to that there is wear. On my '63 with a
3471S? AFB it was enough to cause a 1000 rpm change at idle. I could
wiggle the shaft and cause the speed to change and it would also
change when blipping the throttle. New shafts were available but not
the baseplate so I machined and re-bushed the holes and it made a BIG
difference in idle and constant throttle running. If the carb
rebuilder has any WCFB bases laying around you might try changing it
to see if it makes any difference. Good luck.

PDDeen

lib wrote:

>Thanx once again for the feedback. Yes, the block was bored 30 over with new
>pistons, rings, cam, etc. The rods and crank were were examined, cleaned,
>polished, etc. and re- used. The block/ lower end was re-assembled by my
>guy, the heads were re-built by the machine shop. My guy said the machine
>shop informed him that using a quart+ of oil in first 1000 mi. is to be
>expected and acceptable to them.
>
It's not to be EXPECTED.... That is bunk.
Acceptable to "Them":.... That's bunk also.

Tough situation, man. See how the carb job works. <crosses fingers>
And the butterfly shaft/baseplate wear that PDD said
is a common thing on old carbs, Carters, Rochesters and Holleys.
And some overlook this.

>I find that statement a bit curious at
>best. Oh well, the search continues- lib
>"Dad" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
>>Snip
>>
>>
>>>>>>to help seat would 10-30wt. or 20wt.oil provide less
>>>>>>lubrication at the cylinder walls( in 55 deg. weather) than
>>>>>>straight 30wt.? If the timing adv. doesn't improve or
>>>>>>eliminate problem, will have them do a leak-down test on
>>>>>>each hole and see if there is a problem there. Thanx- lib
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>I don't feel your timing change will help and if the carb setup does
>>anything much I'd be surprised but it sure can't hurt to have it setup on
>>a flow bench. Remember that today's fuel is going to have some effect on
>>how well your carburetor can be tuned just due to the age of its design.
>>One thing I noticed on my '64 is the heavy soot that is left in the carbon
>>channels in the manifold and the choke tube system. Although that
>>shouldn't affect the way the carburetor works it tells me it is reacting
>>to the older design different that it use to with the fuel of the sixties.
>>
>>Straight 20 weight non detergent and work it, don't beat it, just give the
>>rings enough drive time that they have a chance to conform to the
>>cylinders finish.
>>
>>During our last club outing I followed a '77 that has a total rebuild on
>>the stock block without a rebore, also a '62 that was bored at rebuild and
>>both put out a puff of smoke, black, when shifted and hard acceleration.
>>Nothing major so I ask one of them if my '64 did that as I couldn't see it
>>and they said, yes, but very slight. My oil usage for 1,000 miles doesn't
>>show up on the stick, just a drip on the floor after driving it. A Z06 did
>>about the same thing but I expect that from any manual transmission
>>equipped vehicle even the newer designs and also the smaller engines.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>with just "1500 mi. on complete re-bore and re-build".
>>>>>whoever done the job, needs to honor their work...
>>>>>
>>>>>my2¢
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>I don't believe there was a re-bore done, I don't remember him saying the
>>pistons were replaced. My guess would be a hone job to break the glaze and
>>give the rings some bite to seat them.
>>
>>Snip
>>
>>
>>>either way ya look at it,
>>>he has a problem and probably won't like the sulution...
>>>
>>>my2¢
>>>--
>>>'Key
>>>=====
>>>
>>>
>>Most likely, and he has the added problem that it was done a long way from
>>where it is now. He may need to see Judge Judy.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35

http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove -SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
"Homer no function beer well without."
- H.J. Simpson