Can an older Hybrid run without its battery after it dies?

Elmo P. Shagnasty > wrote:
> In article >,
> wrote:

>> Ah, but what about buying a used one after the batteries dies, and the
>> first owner decides to sell it at a loss, instead of replacing the
>> batteries?
>>
>> Now you have a nicely appointed car that can get 50mpg on the highway.
>> Maybe more, after taking the dead weight out of the trunk.

> Can't push start it, can you?

> It'll get GREAT mileage sitting in your driveway--because that's all it
> can do.

Sorry, Elmo, I just don't believe you know what you are talking about.


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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Elmo P. Shagnasty > wrote:
> In article .com>,
> wrote:

>> Yes you can still drive it,

> No, he can't.

> Look for the starter. Not there. Why? IMA is the starter.

The starter is a little hard to spot, but it is there, on the front side of
the engine, down low.

> There are a lot of gotchas invovled here.

Lack of a "normal" starter motor not being one of them.

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Elmo P. Shagnasty > wrote:
> "K. E. Loyd" > wrote:
>> is this possible?

> No.

Why is that?


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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote
> wrote:
snip
> > Yes you can still drive it,
>
> No, he can't.
>
> Look for the starter. Not there. Why? IMA is the starter.
>
> There are a lot of gotchas invovled here.

But then there are reports like the following:

"The Honda IMA system allows cars to drive without battery assist at
all.....for example, I drive a 2004 Civic Hybrid and I ran my battery all
the way down to the last bar this week, and the car drove fine...I lost
"battery assisted power" so that it if I had been racing someone I might
have been in trouble, but the car drove just fine and did not fail in any
fashion." Posted April, 2005 at
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef22e54

Another poster backed this point up, saying the Prius would fail if the big
battery failed, but the Honda Civic Hybrid would still run.

Same point made at
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/h...35.html?page=2

"[i]f the IMA dies (or with age-the battery is weak), it doesn't matter. The
Honda can still operate as a pure gasoline car. You can avoid an expensive
~$2000 repair bill, and still use your car."

Lastly, from http://www.insightcentral.net/encycl...enrestart.html , on
the Honda Insight, which also has an IMA system:
---------
Under most conditions, the Insight engine is started by the IMA motor, which
instantly spins the engine to 1000 rpm.

The Insight also has a conventional 12v auxiliary starter motor that is used
in the following situations:

The state of charge of the Battery Module is too low.
The ambient temperature is too high or too low.
There is a failure of the IMA system.
Because the Insight won't enter idle stop mode in any of the above
situations, all engine starts other than the initial start will always be
done using the IMA motor.

To test the 12v auxiliary starting system, first disable the IMA starting
system by removing fuse #2 from the under-dash fusebox.
-----

> wrote
> Elle > wrote:
> > No dispute, if memory serves me correctly. It's non-highway driving
where
> > the effects should be most noticeable. (Isn't it so that the hybrid cars
> > biggest fuel econ advantage occurs when driving in the city? The battery
>
> The Toyota/Ford-style Hybrid is the one that gets better mileage in the
city
> than on the highway.

That's not what I meant. I was referring to the _increase_ in fuel mileage
that results from driving a Hybrid instead of a non-hybrid, in both city and
highway conditions. The increase is greater in the city, by my recollection.

> They would be unable to operate normally without a
> battery. The Civic would be relatively unaffected in the city, I think.

I was just perusing some reviews of the Civic hybrid, where stuff like the
following is noted:

"The weirdest sensation is when you stop at traffic lights and the engine
automatically shuts off to save fuel. As soon as you put the car in gear and
touch the gas pedal the engine fires up without any hesitation. A small icon
in the left-hand gauge indicates when the engine has shut off.

It's important to remember that this is first and foremost a
gasoline-powered car. Under normal driving conditions, the gas engine is the
primary source of power. The electric motor only provides power when extra
oomph is needed for passing, accelerating or climbing a grade. (This is the
opposite of how many people think it operates.) At other times (when
decelerating and under braking) the electric motor turns into a generator to
recharge the 144-volt battery pack. The mode of the electric motor is
indicated in a bar graph in the right hand gauge in the instrument cluster."

http://honda.jbcarpages.com/Civic/2003Hybrid/index2.php

To me, this means that the hybrid performs much better in the city, as far
as fuel mileage is concerned, compared to the non-hybrid. Cruising, the
hybrid should be more similar to the non-hybrid.

And, yes, I see now what the "bar" terminology means. Gawd, talk about "car
vocabulary for dummies... " All right, most car drivers are dummies when it
comes to how their car engine systems work.

> My 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid gets 39 in heavy city driving, 53 at 70 mpg,
and
> 44 overall.

Yes, but the big improvement over a conventional Civic is the city driving
fuel mileage. That's what I was trying to say, anyway.

Elle > wrote:
> That's not what I meant. I was referring to the _increase_ in fuel mileage
> that results from driving a Hybrid instead of a non-hybrid, in both city and
> highway conditions. The increase is greater in the city, by my recollection.

Right. At cruising speeds, the Honda is just a gas engine, with the
electric IMA available.

The biggest difference is in the Ford/Toyota style, in the city.
There, the difference could be double.

> Yes, but the big improvement over a conventional Civic is the city driving
> fuel mileage. That's what I was trying to say, anyway.

The Honda City EPA is 47 hybrid, 31 non, a 51% boost
The Honda Hiwy EPA is 48 hybrid, 38 non, a 25% boost
The highway mileage estimate is pretty good, The city seems high, so I
don't know how that really ranks compared to the non-hybrid.

The Ford/Toyota Hybrid is dramatically different in the city, and might be
disappointing on the highway.
The Ford 4wd automatic Hybrid/V6/I4 city is 33/18/19, 83%.
The Ford 4wd automatic Hybrid/V6/I4 hiwy is 29/22/22, 33%.
Comparing the 2wd Hybrid CVT to normal 4 cyl, manual trans
City is 36/24, 50%. Highway is 31/29, only 7%.

In order to recoup the premium, it needs lots of miles, but on the highway,
it might not be the best choice. The Yellow Cab fleet in San Francisco
should come out okay.

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

"K. E. Loyd" > wrote in message
news:rudze.14491$fV.10324@okepread06...
> The economic payback thing has held me back from buying this car up until
> now. However, now that there are a few Insights and Civics that are 2-5
> years old, it may make sense as a used car purchase.
>
> If you assume a Civic EX is the equivalent non-hybrid, and I have little
> use for the back seat anyway, then the hybrid civic premium becomes very
> small on a used model.
>
> Treating the Insight as equivalent to the used Civic EX, they are about
> the same.
>
> I may replace the battery at ~100k miles, but that second battery will
> likely not be replaced if it dies. This is my conundrum. Can the car run
> from 150k miles to 200k miles with no big battery, just a little car with
> a little motor?
>

Get the Jazz next year and be done with it. If I was to consider such a zany
idea, I would get a motorcycle and take the bus when I couldn't ride.
>
>

> wrote
> In order to recoup the premium, it needs lots of miles, but on the
highway,
> it might not be the best choice.

Yes, that's a good criterion.

If a person does not do so much highway driving, then the original poster's
point about buying a Hybrid used may be a good one. It's certainly worth
investigating.

I have no idea how the hybrids depreciate. I suppose the pricing features at
Edmunds.com would be as good a place as any to start. Or the original poster
has already checked.

MAT wrote:
>>I may replace the battery at ~100k miles, but that second battery will
>>likely not be replaced if it dies. This is my conundrum. Can the car run
>>from 150k miles to 200k miles with no big battery, just a little car with
>>a little motor?
>>
>
>
> Get the Jazz next year and be done with it. If I was to consider such a zany
> idea, I would get a motorcycle and take the bus when I couldn't ride.
>

i second that. im holding out for the jazz, even though my 98 CX is in
mint shape. i kinda like the scion xA, though, as well. size/space is a
major factor, since my garage is so small. had to buy JDM folding
mirrors to fit in there next to the motorcycle

Elle wrote:
> > wrote
>
>>In order to recoup the premium, it needs lots of miles, but on the
>
> highway,
>
>>it might not be the best choice.
>
>
> Yes, that's a good criterion.
>
> If a person does not do so much highway driving, then the original poster's
> point about buying a Hybrid used may be a good one. It's certainly worth
> investigating.
>
> I have no idea how the hybrids depreciate. I suppose the pricing features at
> Edmunds.com would be as good a place as any to start. Or the original poster
> has already checked.
>
>
no matter how ya cut it, its still not worth it compared to, say, a
nineties civic hatch.