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Braking in New Handbrake shoes and Disks



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 9th 05, 06:24 AM
fbloogyudsr
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"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote
> I'm not missing the point, Jeff, you are. A parking brake should be
> capable of holding the car stationary on *any* hill using modest force -
> the amount anyone could be expected to provide. The one on my car isn't -
> despite being in perfect condition. Neither was the previous one on my
> E34. Or in the previous E28.


IMHO, any parking/emergency brake that 1) won't stop a car or 2) won't
hold on hills is broken and needs attention. The hand brakes on *all*
the BMW's I've owned (E12, E21, E34, E46) can stop my car, and can
hold on any Seattle hill.

> Its use as an emergency brake became redundant after dual circuit brakes
> came in.


I don't completely agree. I'm really glad to have another option - the more
the better IMO.

Floyd

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  #22  
Old March 9th 05, 10:20 PM
Jeff Strickland
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"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jeff Strickland > wrote:
> > You guys are missing the point, the example you gave of a '60s era
> > Pontiac used the actual brakes for stopping as a Parking Brake. Frankly,
> > in those days, the parking brake was reasonably termed an Emergency
> > Brake. It could be called upon to stop the car if needed. The trouble
> > was that there was a court case where a person told the judge, "it was
> > an emergency, so I used that brake to stop sooner." Shortly after that,
> > it became known as a parking brake.

>
> I'm not missing the point, Jeff, you are. A parking brake should be
> capable of holding the car stationary on *any* hill using modest force -
> the amount anyone could be expected to provide. The one on my car isn't -
> despite being in perfect condition. Neither was the previous one on my
> E34. Or in the previous E28.
>


Except when it was out of adjustment because the cable was stretched, my E36
has never failed to hold my car anywhere I have asked the Parking Brake to
do its job.

I am not a good source of discussion on using the parking brake as a hill
holder because I can safely say that I never do that. I am sure I have done
it a time or two while playing in my car, but I do not make it a practice.



> Its use as an emergency brake became redundant after dual circuit brakes
> came in.
>
> With an auto, the problem is not great. But with a manual, doing hill
> starts on a steep hill would be a real pain.


Only for people that don't know how to drive. As I said, I never use the
parking brake as a hill holder.




  #23  
Old March 9th 05, 10:35 PM
Jeff Strickland
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"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jeff Strickland > wrote:
> > The ONLY goal is to hold the car in place once you have found a parking
> > spot.

>
> Err, hill starts on a steep hill in a manual? Or do you just hold it on
> the clutch? And do you ever have a full load in your car?
>


No. I use the brake pedal until the cars begin to move, when they start
going, then I start going. In 30+ years of driving, the only car I have ever
hit when starting on a hill was one that was closer than 3 inches.




> > It does this job very well, IF it is adjusted properly. My bitch
> > about the parking brake is that it is a bitch to adjust properly.

>
> Easy enough with the correct technique. But given the quality of the rest
> of the mechanics, it should be self adjusting. Self adjusting brakes have
> been around for a long, long, time.


I have never seen a self adjusting parking brake. Since its design criteria
call for it to be used while the vehicle is stationary, then adjusting would
be difficult to accomplish automatically. Self-adjusting drum brakes have
been around for several decades, but they only adjust when the brakes are
used while the car is going in Reverse. Since the Parking Brake is used when
the vehicle is stationary, I can see where the adjustment would not be done
automatically because it requires the driver to take a hand off the wheel
while driving in Reverse to set the Parking Brake that should only be used
while parking. If the driver was unskilled, and followed the procedure, and
this led to an accident, then the Suits up in the Legal Department would
have to spend an afternoon in court when they would rather be on the links.

Basically, you should resign yourself to the fact that you have a Parking
Brake on your car. And when it is used to park the car, it works just fine,
if it is adjusted properly.





  #24  
Old March 9th 05, 10:40 PM
Jeff Strickland
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"Michael Low" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Jeff Strickland > wrote:
> > > The ONLY goal is to hold the car in place once you have found a

> parking
> > > spot.

> >
> > Err, hill starts on a steep hill in a manual? Or do you just hold it

> on
> > the clutch? And do you ever have a full load in your car?
> >

>
>
> Also a nightmare if you have another car sitting right behind your rear
> bumper and the traffic is only inching forward once in a while. Even
> worse if you have to back up a steep ramp for some reason (like the
> garage door not opening for some reason). Without the handbrake you
> will have to slip your clutch a lot more than you'd care to.
>
>


I hate to sound so superior, but I never have these issues.

I never use my parking brake as a hill holder under any circumstances, with
the possible exception when I am playing around just to see what you guys
are talking about. But, even if I used it this way, it works fine because it
holds a stationary car stationary, which is all it needs to do.








  #25  
Old March 9th 05, 11:22 PM
Dave Plowman (News)
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In article >,
Jeff Strickland > wrote:
> I am not a good source of discussion on using the parking brake as a
> hill holder because I can safely say that I never do that. I am sure I
> have done it a time or two while playing in my car, but I do not make it
> a practice.


It's the recognised way of doing a hill start - as taught in the UK. Do it
any other way and you'd fail your driving test.

> > Its use as an emergency brake became redundant after dual circuit
> > brakes came in.
> >
> > With an auto, the problem is not great. But with a manual, doing hill
> > starts on a steep hill would be a real pain.


> Only for people that don't know how to drive.


I'd dispute that. 'Heel and toeing' isn't for everyone, and isn't
practical on some vehicles. Or for some with small feet, etc.

> As I said, I never use the parking brake as a hill holder.


Fine. You'll not find any authority on save driving who agrees with you.
And you're tacitly admitting the BMW handbrake isn't up to it.

--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #26  
Old March 9th 05, 11:22 PM
Dave Plowman (News)
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In article >,
Jeff Strickland > wrote:
> I have never seen a self adjusting parking brake. Since its design
> criteria call for it to be used while the vehicle is stationary, then
> adjusting would be difficult to accomplish automatically. Self-adjusting
> drum brakes have been around for several decades, but they only adjust
> when the brakes are used while the car is going in Reverse.


Nonsense.

--
*Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #27  
Old March 10th 05, 12:31 AM
Michael Low
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Try this Jeff, place your 2-ton car, nose-first, at the bottom of a
narrow entry ramp ramp inclined at a very steep angle with the nose of
your car about a foot away from a garage door that won't open. Now try
backing up without using the handbrake. By the way, it just rained and
the surface of the ramp is slippery.

Next try this. Try going forward 5 to 10 feet to bridge the gap with
the car in front on a steep hill with another car just behind your rear
bumper. You can't see the hood of the car behind because the
new-fangled design of your BMW precludes looking over the trunk lid.
You car, like my 540i, develops over 320 lb-ft of torque at 3000 rpm.

You can more easily make these maneuvers without the handbrake in
small-engined light-weight cars but there is high probability you'll
regret not having used it if you have a 2-ton car with a big engine.
There's nothing macho about insisting on playing with the clutch when
it makes a great deal more sense just to use the handbrake. It is also
gentler on the clutch. If you prefer macho there's always the track.

  #28  
Old March 10th 05, 08:24 PM
Jeff Strickland
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Sorry, I have done all of those things. And I do them with out resorting to
using the handbrake. I just don't understand the problem, I have no trouble
drving my car in these condidions. I have to admit, I seldom find myslef in
these situations, except that the local supermarket driveway is a relatively
steep hill. But, I have no problem whenever I do find myself in the
situations you describe. Sorry that my life is so simple.




"Michael Low" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Try this Jeff, place your 2-ton car, nose-first, at the bottom of a
> narrow entry ramp ramp inclined at a very steep angle with the nose of
> your car about a foot away from a garage door that won't open. Now try
> backing up without using the handbrake. By the way, it just rained and
> the surface of the ramp is slippery.
>
> Next try this. Try going forward 5 to 10 feet to bridge the gap with
> the car in front on a steep hill with another car just behind your rear
> bumper. You can't see the hood of the car behind because the
> new-fangled design of your BMW precludes looking over the trunk lid.
> You car, like my 540i, develops over 320 lb-ft of torque at 3000 rpm.
>
> You can more easily make these maneuvers without the handbrake in
> small-engined light-weight cars but there is high probability you'll
> regret not having used it if you have a 2-ton car with a big engine.
> There's nothing macho about insisting on playing with the clutch when
> it makes a great deal more sense just to use the handbrake. It is also
> gentler on the clutch. If you prefer macho there's always the track.
>



  #29  
Old March 10th 05, 08:42 PM
Dave Plowman (News)
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In article >,
Jeff Strickland > wrote:
> Sorry, I have done all of those things. And I do them with out resorting
> to using the handbrake. I just don't understand the problem, I have no
> trouble drving my car in these condidions. I have to admit, I seldom
> find myslef in these situations, except that the local supermarket
> driveway is a relatively steep hill. But, I have no problem whenever I
> do find myself in the situations you describe. Sorry that my life is so
> simple.


If you're saying you live in a flat part of the world, I'm not surprised
you find the handbrake ok.

--
*Filthy stinking rich -- well, two out of three ain't bad

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #30  
Old March 10th 05, 09:50 PM
Ignasi Palou-Rivera
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"Dave Plowman (News)" > writes:
> In article >,
> Jeff Strickland > wrote:
>> Sorry, I have done all of those things. And I do them with out resorting
>> to using the handbrake. I just don't understand the problem, I have no
>> trouble drving my car in these condidions. I have to admit, I seldom
>> find myslef in these situations, except that the local supermarket
>> driveway is a relatively steep hill. But, I have no problem whenever I
>> do find myself in the situations you describe. Sorry that my life is so
>> simple.

>
> If you're saying you live in a flat part of the world, I'm not surprised
> you find the handbrake ok.


For some strange "cultural" reason people here in the US are very
adverse to using the hand brake. (They even call it the parking
brake. Sheesh.)

My own wife (American) freaks out when I used it to hold her car on
the ramp to move out of the underground garage in our building. She
feels more comfortable if I hold the car using the clutch! It doesn't make sense.

Then there were my grad school roommates not being too fond on me using
the handbrake to park the car at an angle when we got a lot of snow around...

--
Ignasi.
'90 325is
(using SPAM trap e-mail address)
 




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