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Question for Europeans



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 9th 05, 08:15 PM
K Smythe
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On Mon, 09 May 2005 10:54:23 -0500,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, 223rem wrote:
>> gazzafield wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry to get political, but it's great the return you get when you invade
>>> a country for it's oil innit? No, sorry, not the oil. For the freedom of
>>> the people, obviously. Ahem.
>>>

>>
>> No, it wasnt for oil, and not for the 'freedom' of the Iraqis.

>
>I believe it to be neither. The only reason that makes even a bit of
>sense is an attempt to bring about a regional stability for the oil
>supply in general. not taking the oil, not wmd, not freedom.
>


It was done for profit, and not the profit of the average American
citizen.

>If it was freedom, shrub could start by promoting it in the USA instead
>of hindering it even more.
>


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  #22  
Old May 9th 05, 08:39 PM
L Sternn
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On Mon, 09 May 2005 12:04:45 -0500,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, Martin Brown wrote:
>> Brent P wrote:

>
>>> In article > , Christian McArdle wrote:
>>>
>>>>People grumble about the price, but deep down know that petroleum use is bad
>>>>due to climate change, so the grumbling is not as loud as it might be.
>>>
>>> I am having problems believing the measured warming is due to CO2.

>
>> Over the past century about half of the Earth's warming has been due to
>> changes in the solar flux and the other half due to CO2 (and other)
>> greenhouse gasses. The main influence of the greenhouse gasses really
>> only becoming impossible to ignore from 1970 onwards.

>
>Correlation != causation. Every model, everything in global warming is
>based on the assumption that the correlation seen is a cause and effect
>relationship and that it works with CO2 causing the warming. All while
>ignoring the other more powerful greenhouse gas from combustion, water.
>As if the water we are pumping into the environment has no effect what so
>ever.
>
>From the CO2 theory, it used towards political ends. Things like the kyoto
>treaty. Treaties that would have us believe making widgets in China is
>better for the environment than making them in Ohio.
>


Just because Kyoto is a bad idea doesn't mean that CO2 isn't
contributing to warming.

>>> Because other planets and satelites (moons) in the solor system are
>>> warming. I think the scale of the issue of climate change is much bigger.

>
>> Although it is true that the sun's output has increased very slightly
>> the amount is *not* sufficient to explain all the observed global
>> warming. Satellite monitoring of solar flux since the 1970's is an
>> important constraint.

>
>It's not enough to explain the the observed warming of mars either.


  #23  
Old May 9th 05, 08:48 PM
Brent P
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In article >, K Smythe wrote:

> It was done for profit, and not the profit of the average American
> citizen.


From stability comes profit. Those that profit from the status quo
control the US government. Nothing seems to be about the average citizen
these days unless it's about taking from him, watching him, or
controlling him.


  #24  
Old May 9th 05, 08:49 PM
Brent P
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In article >, L Sternn wrote:

> Just because Kyoto is a bad idea doesn't mean that CO2 isn't
> contributing to warming.


Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But what I see is people with an agenda
pushing that it is. That makes me suspicious.


  #25  
Old May 9th 05, 09:41 PM
Depresion
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"Magnulus" > wrote in message
...
>
> In Europe, somebody who is too poor to afford the fuel for a car often has
> alternatives, this is not the case in the US except for the major cities.
> And alot of the US population does not live in these cities.


It's the same in most of Europe if you don't live in a major town then you need
a car for daily life. We just accept it and have to find other things we can do
without (hence the general lack of massive TVs, smaller homes, smaller cars with
smaller engines)


  #26  
Old May 10th 05, 05:10 AM
Dirty Sanchez
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Christian McArdle wrote:
>>Since you folks in Europe have had $5/gallon gas for years
>>(thanks to high taxes), what's happening to gas prices over
>>there in Europe? Are they going to hit $10/gallon soon?

>
>
> Because the prices are mostly tax, and this is largely set in absolute
> terms, rather than a percentage, we are insulated from much of the
> fluctuation in the price of the base product.
>
> People grumble about the price, but deep down know that petroleum use is bad
> due to climate change, so the grumbling is not as loud as it might be.
>
> Christian.


97% of "green house gases" have natural causes, only 3% are man made.
Of those 3%, over one third are caused by the production of electricity.
20% are caused by petrol and diesel transport.

Why don't governments worldwide tax electricity at at least the same
rate they tax petrol and diesel? Because that would be political suicide.

It's much easier to convince Joe Everybody that the gases coming out the
back of his car are destroying the planet. Yet, when the average person
switches on a heater instead of putting a jumper on, there are no extra
smelly gases being visibly released out the back of his house, that's
happening a few hundred k's away.

I don't know of any government who spends as much money on road
infrastructure and/or alternative fuel research, as they take in from
petrol taxes. If anyone in a position of power were serious about
"saving the planet" they'd be investing billions.

With all governments, everything is all about easy revenue. Stuff the
people, if the bottom line looks better, that's all that matters.
  #27  
Old May 10th 05, 07:11 AM
Magnulus
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"Depresion" > wrote in message
...
> It's the same in most of Europe if you don't live in a major town then you

need
> a car for daily life. We just accept it and have to find other things we

can do
> without (hence the general lack of massive TVs, smaller homes, smaller

cars with
> smaller engines)


The UK is closer to the US in that respect, as is Australia, as the number
of cars per person is closer to the US... but in other parts of Europe the
population has fewer cars- usually less than 1 car for every 2-3 people.
Eastern Europe, Russia, and China have even fewer cars, less than one car
for every 5-100 people.

Not everybody in the US has a big TV, either... especially if they are
smart about managing credit. The US has plenty of people living well beyond
their means who are only a stones throw away from the Repo man, but not all
of us are like that. Small houses, OTOH, are harder to get. Housing prices
have shot up, and often developers seem to favor gargantuan houses in the
"better" neighborhoods. Sure, you can get smaller houses and apartments- if
you don't mind living a stones throw away from a drug dealer or gang member.


  #28  
Old May 10th 05, 08:00 AM
chris@ukaskew
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"Scott en Aztlán" > wrote in message
...
> Here in the US the top story recently has been the large upward spike
> in gasoline prices. Some have predicted that gasoline will top
> $5/gallon by next year, up from $2.50/gallon today. Since you folks in
> Europe have had $5/gallon gas for years (thanks to high taxes), what's
> happening to gas prices over there in Europe? Are they going to hit
> $10/gallon soon? Is the price of gas the top story on your local TV
> news?
>
> Signed,
>
> Curious



I'd be interested in how it compares if you factor in the average MPG of
cars on British roads with cars on US roads. I assume there is evidence
somewhere when the press always mentions US 'gas guzzlers'

Chris.


  #29  
Old May 10th 05, 08:14 AM
Thomas Schäfer
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"Magnulus" wrote

> In Europe, somebody who is too poor to afford the fuel for a car often has
> alternatives, this is not the case in the US except for the major cities.


Although I live in an urban area (>500000 inhabitants), I would need 55 min
for 10 km with public transport to my office. My bicycle is faster.

Our individual alternatives are
- car pools
- small cars (3 cylinders, 1 litre displacement, 4-5 litres / 100km)
- small motorcycles (2-3 litres / 100km)
- bicycles
- stay at home, receiving social aid.

It's this last point, which seems quite attractive to many people.
That's a major problem.

Thomas


  #30  
Old May 10th 05, 08:28 AM
Brent P
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In article >, Magnulus wrote:

> of us are like that. Small houses, OTOH, are harder to get. Housing prices
> have shot up, and often developers seem to favor gargantuan houses in the
> "better" neighborhoods. Sure, you can get smaller houses and apartments- if
> you don't mind living a stones throw away from a drug dealer or gang member.


If you want smaller you simply have to buy older properties. There are
many good areas with smaller homes.


 




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