Driving Without A Thermostat

On 10 Feb 2005 06:08:34 GMT, "TeGGer®" > wrote:

>Lawrence Glickman > wrote in
:
>
>
>> You say it is to -cool- off the peak burning temp in what? There are
>> only 2 places combustion is taking place.
>>
>> 1) cylinders
>> 2) catalytic converter
>>
>> You think EGR is cooling off any of those places? really? Why would
>> you want to? Cylinders are cooled by water jacket in block.
>>
>> Catcon is cooled by radiation and convection.
>>
>> Already not explained.
>>
>
>
>Combustion requires a mixture of fuel and oxygen.
>
>Fresh air is about 21% oxygen.
>
>Exhaust gas has had most of its oxygen burned up.
>
>If you route some exhaust gas back to the combustion chamber, it will end
>up substituting for some of the fresh, oxygen-rich air that would normally
>have gotten sucked into the combustion chamber.
>
>The upshot is that there is now less oxygen to mate with the fuel
>molecules, so there is less combustion (but the combustion chamber is still
>the same size!)
>
>Less combustion in the same size chamber means less pressure. Less pressure
>means less heat. Less heat means less of a tendency for the formation of
>oxides of nitrogen in the combustion chamber.

You realize this DOES all seem counter-intuitive, right? I mean, you
are diluting the combustible mix with waste gasses.

>Having said all that, there are plenty of imports that manage to satisfy NO
>emissions regulations without the hassle of messy, trouble-prone EGR
>systems. EGR seems a kludgy answer to NO regulations these days.

I have a confession to make.

I WAS WRONG! You are right. I stand corrected.

Just shows you how much I need to learn. But learn I -do-. I always
learn something here! Why do you think I put up with Bob? Because
this group is VALUABLE! Even Billy Bad Ass teaches me things I didn't
know.

I have a lot to learn.

Lg[

In article >,
Lawrence Glickman > wrote:

> >You're wrong on both.
>
> Referee calls FOUL!
> Throws down Red Flag.
>
> Ball returned to Glickman.
>
> >Combustion occurs in the "Combustion Chamber.'
>
> That's the upper part of the cylinder nitwit, between the piston head
> and the spark plug.

If we were talking about a 2 stroke outboard motor manufactured
by Mercury Marine, you'd be a little closer to being correct, but
we're not so you aren't.

> 2 points GLICKMAN
> 7 yard penalty AARACUDA

The play has been challenged and reviewed, the referee has
overturned the penalty and Glickman has been charged with a time
out. Glickman is also penalized for a face mask violation
because he misspelled "aarcuda", the ball is moved half the
distance to the goal.

> >The catalytic convertor "oxidizes" HC and CO, it sometime also
> >reduces NOx
> >
> >> You think EGR is cooling off any of those places?
> >
> >In the combustion chamber, yes.
> >
> >> really?
> >
> >Really. I promise.
>
> Referee blows WHISTLE !
> White flag out.
> Managers on the field
> discussion with Referee, eachother,
> WHISTLE!
>
> 2 points AARACUDA
> 7 yard penalty STANDS
>
> >> Why would
> >> you want to?
> >
> >Because when nitrogen, which makes up 78% of the intake air
> >charge is heated above (apprx) 2500 degrees Fahrenheit, oxides of
> >nitrogen are formed. Oxides of nitrogen are a primary
> >contributor to photo chemical smog.
> >
> >> Cylinders are cooled by water jacket in block.
> >
> >Yes they are, but that is not the issue since combustion does not
> >occur in the cylinders
>
> Referee calls FOUL!
> Throws down Red Flag.
>
> Ball returned to Glickman.
>
> >Combustion occurs in the "Combustion Chamber.'
>
> That's the upper part of the cylinder nitwit, between the piston head
> and the spark plug.

Larry, Larry, Larry, the combustion chamber is part of the
"cylinder head" The "cylinders" are a machined part of the
"engine block." Two different separate parts, different part
numbers, often of different materials, the combustion chamber
defines the combustion characteristics, flame speed, yadda,
yadda, yadda.

> 2 points GLICKMAN
> 7 yard penalty AARACUDA

No points for Glickman, no penalty for aarcuda, facemask foul
again for Glickman, ball moves half the distance to the goal,
score still;
arrcuda 2
Glickman 0

> >> Catcon is cooled by radiation and convection.
> >
> >True but irrelevant.
> >
> >> Already not explained.
> >
> >There is plenty of information out there on the subject.
>
> Makes one wonder why more people don't use google?
>
> TOUCHDOWN!
> 6 points Glickman
> Field Goal
> SCORE!
> 2 points Glickman

Glickman didn't Google, Glickman gets sacked, Glickman fumbles,
aarcuda recovers in the endzone, aarcuda scores 6 points.
Glickman loses.

> BAND TIME, AND LETS SHAKE THOSE TITTIES GIRLS !!!

Now you're talking!

In article >,
Lawrence Glickman > wrote:

> >Less combustion in the same size chamber means less pressure. Less pressure
> >means less heat. Less heat means less of a tendency for the formation of
> >oxides of nitrogen in the combustion chamber.
>
> You realize this DOES all seem counter-intuitive, right? I mean, you
> are diluting the combustible mix with waste gasses.

It's not counter-intuitive.
EGR usually only operates at light load cruise, on acceleration,
the mixture is rich so EGR is not needed to reduce NOx, on decel,
fuel is cut off so there isn't enough fire to form NOx.
While you're cruising down the Dan Ryan, you really don't need
all 3000 cc's under the hood of that Sable, if the EGR opens and
displaces the equivalent of 1/3rd (just for a numbers sake) of
the engines displacement, don't you in effect now have a more
efficient for the job 2000 cc engine doing the light load task
asked of it?

> >Having said all that, there are plenty of imports that manage to satisfy NO
> >emissions regulations without the hassle of messy, trouble-prone EGR
> >systems. EGR seems a kludgy answer to NO regulations these days.
>
> I have a confession to make.
>
> I WAS WRONG! You are right. I stand corrected.
>
> Just shows you how much I need to learn. But learn I -do-. I always
> learn something here! Why do you think I put up with Bob? Because
> this group is VALUABLE! Even Billy Bad Ass teaches me things I didn't
> know.
>
> I have a lot to learn.

Yup!

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:28:33 GMT, aarcuda69062
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Lawrence Glickman > wrote:
>
>> >You're wrong on both.
>>
>> Referee calls FOUL!
>> Throws down Red Flag.
>>
>> Ball returned to Glickman.
>>
>> >Combustion occurs in the "Combustion Chamber.'
>>
>> That's the upper part of the cylinder nitwit, between the piston head
>> and the spark plug.
>
>If we were talking about a 2 stroke outboard motor manufactured
>by Mercury Marine, you'd be a little closer to being correct, but
>we're not so you aren't.
>
>> 2 points GLICKMAN
>> 7 yard penalty AARACUDA
>
>The play has been challenged and reviewed, the referee has
>overturned the penalty and Glickman has been charged with a time
>out. Glickman is also penalized for a face mask violation
>because he misspelled "aarcuda", the ball is moved half the
>distance to the goal.
>
>> >The catalytic convertor "oxidizes" HC and CO, it sometime also
>> >reduces NOx
>> >
>> >> You think EGR is cooling off any of those places?
>> >
>> >In the combustion chamber, yes.
>> >
>> >> really?
>> >
>> >Really. I promise.
>>
>> Referee blows WHISTLE !
>> White flag out.
>> Managers on the field
>> discussion with Referee, eachother,
>> WHISTLE!
>>
>> 2 points AARACUDA
>> 7 yard penalty STANDS
>>
>> >> Why would
>> >> you want to?
>> >
>> >Because when nitrogen, which makes up 78% of the intake air
>> >charge is heated above (apprx) 2500 degrees Fahrenheit, oxides of
>> >nitrogen are formed. Oxides of nitrogen are a primary
>> >contributor to photo chemical smog.
>> >
>> >> Cylinders are cooled by water jacket in block.
>> >
>> >Yes they are, but that is not the issue since combustion does not
>> >occur in the cylinders
>>
>> Referee calls FOUL!
>> Throws down Red Flag.
>>
>> Ball returned to Glickman.
>>
>> >Combustion occurs in the "Combustion Chamber.'
>>
>> That's the upper part of the cylinder nitwit, between the piston head
>> and the spark plug.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>Larry, Larry, Larry, the combustion chamber is part of the
>"cylinder head" The "cylinders" are a machined part of the
>"engine block." Two different separate parts, different part
>numbers, often of different materials, the combustion chamber
>defines the combustion characteristics, flame speed, yadda,
>yadda, yadda.

This isn't common knowledge. I thought is was all the same sleeves.
You mean only in the head part of the cylinder is where combustion
takes place? ONLY the head part?

WHISTLES!
2 points aarcuda, 5 yard penalty GLICKMAN!
( crowd ROARS with disapproval! ) beer being thrown on the field by
the fans. the crowd is getting UGLY

>
>> 2 points GLICKMAN
>> 7 yard penalty AARACUDA
>
>No points for Glickman, no penalty for aarcuda, facemask foul
>again for Glickman, ball moves half the distance to the goal,
>score still;
>arrcuda 2
>Glickman 0

crowd is standing now
Security is getting nervous

>> >> Catcon is cooled by radiation and convection.
>> >
>> >True but irrelevant.
>> >
>> >> Already not explained.
>> >
>> >There is plenty of information out there on the subject.
>>
>> Makes one wonder why more people don't use google?
>>
>> TOUCHDOWN!
>> 6 points Glickman
>> Field Goal
>> SCORE!
>> 2 points Glickman
>
>Glickman didn't Google, Glickman gets sacked, Glickman fumbles,
>aarcuda recovers in the endzone, aarcuda scores 6 points.
>Glickman loses.

DAMN!
mumbles under breath "it's only a game, it's only a game"
CROWD IS SURGING TOWARD FIELD, THEY ARE ON THE FIELD SHAKING THE GOAL
POSTS! PLAYERS ARE RUNNING FOR THE LOCKER ROOMS! POLICE AND DOGS OUT
IN FORCE NOW!

>> BAND TIME, AND LETS SHAKE THOSE TITTIES GIRLS !!!
>
>Now you're talking!

Guards take up positions in front of GLICKMAN'S LOCKER ROOM. Pushing
back fans that want REVENGE! Glickman is changing into his Old Maid
disguise so he can leave by a secret entrance

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:41:54 GMT, aarcuda69062
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Lawrence Glickman > wrote:
>
>> >Less combustion in the same size chamber means less pressure. Less pressure
>> >means less heat. Less heat means less of a tendency for the formation of
>> >oxides of nitrogen in the combustion chamber.
>>
>> You realize this DOES all seem counter-intuitive, right? I mean, you
>> are diluting the combustible mix with waste gasses.
>
>It's not counter-intuitive.
>EGR usually only operates at light load cruise, on acceleration,
>the mixture is rich so EGR is not needed to reduce NOx, on decel,
>fuel is cut off so there isn't enough fire to form NOx.
>While you're cruising down the Dan Ryan, you really don't need
>all 3000 cc's under the hood of that Sable, if the EGR opens and
>displaces the equivalent of 1/3rd (just for a numbers sake) of
>the engines displacement, don't you in effect now have a more
>efficient for the job 2000 cc engine doing the light load task
>asked of it?

So EGR is the "poor man's Cadillac" that shuts off some cylinders when
their power isn't needed then..... ?!!! WHAT? It cuts back on their
fuel load IOW. Strange how I've gone All These Years without knowing
that, but then, my wife didn't know it either. Tomorrow we'll have
something to talk about at the breakfast table.

>> >Having said all that, there are plenty of imports that manage to satisfy NO
>> >emissions regulations without the hassle of messy, trouble-prone EGR
>> >systems. EGR seems a kludgy answer to NO regulations these days.
>>
>> I have a confession to make.
>>
>> I WAS WRONG! You are right. I stand corrected.
>>
>> Just shows you how much I need to learn. But learn I -do-. I always
>> learn something here! Why do you think I put up with Bob? Because
>> this group is VALUABLE! Even Billy Bad Ass teaches me things I didn't
>> know.
>>
>> I have a lot to learn.
>
>Yup!

Well this is a good place to get the information. IMO. Even putting
up with some bull**** I'm still tuning to this frequency for
"important News bulletins"

Lg

> wrote in message
oups.com...

> I need your opinions on this.
>
> A friend told me that a thermostat in a car is not necessary for proper
> engine operation and that the thermostat is mainly there to provide
> heat for people in the car. He said that cooler engines run better, are
> more powerful, last a lot longer, and provides more protection for
> gaskets. When the thermostats on his cars go bad, he takes them out
> altogether and runs without one. If needed, he even hooks a portable
> electric heater in his vehicles to get heat in the winter. He loves his
> engines to run very cool. When I ride with him, the temperature gauge
> in his cars never even move past 'C'.

Um, couple of issues -- hot days may cause engine to overheat -- why you say,
simple because a thermostat is constructed so that when opened. The small
opening causes water to increase it's velocity in turn the water cools as it's
pumped back into the engine!

Another issue is the oil - your oil needs to warm up a bit before it can do what
it was designed to do -- may take several additional minutes to warm to it's
optimal value

If you feel the need -- do this -- thermostat in hand, cut out the plunger! So
that you now have a washer looking piece -- install just that washer piece -- on
cold days your engine will never warm up to optimal operation -- no more
closed-loop operation!!!

> What do you think of this? Would it be all right to take the thermostat
> out of my car and drive without one if mine ever goes bad? I drive a
> '91 Plymouth Sundance w/ 2.5l engine.


I recommend that you don't remove it -- your engine will last allot longer!

If you can do it yourself, they're cheap to R/R!

--
BBA
°?°
BBA's RC Site - http://www.billybadassrc.com
When Privacy Matters -- http://www.epic.org

| around 190 F
Why use ºF ( looks meaningless to me ), in preference to ºC ?

| in warm up mode running really rich
My Honda F20A 's front oxygen sensor produces ~0.55v in open loop :
not very rich. Neither does this author's.
http://home.flash.net/~lorint/lorin/fuel/lambda.htm

Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
> You say it is to -cool- off the peak burning temp in what? There are
> only 2 places combustion is taking place.
>
> 1) cylinders
> 2) catalytic converter
>
> You think EGR is cooling off any of those places? really? Why would
> you want to? Cylinders are cooled by water jacket in block.
>
> Catcon is cooled by radiation and convection.
>
> Already not explained.
>
> Lg
>

The former. There is only so much energy contained in the fuel mixed
with intake charge. By having to heat up more inert (already combusted)
matter, overall temperature of the charge and recirculated portion is
reduced. Also, the combustion is a bit slower and less efficient.
Mixing water into charge does a very similar thing, but even stronger
effect, since water is usually injected as a fine mist. But who wants
to keep having to fill another tank. Why not use water vapor and other
gases already in exhaust.

Nox emissions are a very strong function of burn temperature. Lowering
burn temperature with dilution with inert matter reduces Nox because it
reduces burn temp, without too seriously hurting efficiency.

TE Cheah wrote:
>
> | Engine
> | develops more power with cooler intake air. But not with lower coolant
> | temps.
>
> Ridiculous ; why then fit any radiator ?

To keep things from melting. To keep the oil from biling
away.

Ed

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, TE Cheah wrote:

> | Engine
> | develops more power with cooler intake air. But not with lower coolant
> | temps.
>
> Ridiculous ; why then fit any radiator ?

So the engine doesn't, um, like, y'know, MELT.