British traffic signal lights

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Harry K wrote:
>
> > Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual.
> >
> > Hold with foot brake.
> > Engage gear.
> > While holding brake, pivot foot over to gas
> > Feed gas while easing out clutch to 'just begin to grab' point.
> > More gas, more clutch and release brake.
>
> I *know* this ! Seemingly 'Dave' has trouble believing we do it this way.
>
>
> > That was one of the first lessons I taught my younger siblings back in
> > the 50s.
> >
> > I have never driven a vehicle from econoboxes up to C60s that you
> > couldn't hit both brake and gas with the right foot.
>
> Sounds a bit dodgy to me. Not sure I'd like to do that in heavy traffic.
>
> Graham

If you are refering to doing it accidently while moving, no, you have
to pivot your foot somewhat sideways to do it, unlikely to happen by
accident. I am just going to -have- to try it in the wife's 500 to see
if it is possibl works in an auto...that is, can you reach both pedals
with the right foot.

Harry K

DYM wrote:

> Pooh Bear > wrote in
> :
>
> > "Ted B." wrote:
> >>
> >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
> >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using
> >> JUST the clutch and accelerator.
> >
> > Sure. But you're not meant to do that for minutes one end. The clutch
> > will start burning.
>
> You aren't holding the the car with the clutch the whole time the light
> is red. Just for the seconds that it takes to transition from stoped to
> moving. Seconds at most.

Actually this is exactly the point I've been trying to make to someone who
apparently refused to accept that what you ( and I ) say is the accepted
norm.

>
> <SNIP>
>
> > You are *NOT* meant to hold a car with the clutch on a hill
> > indefinitely ! You'll trash the clutch. It's also plain clumsy.
> >
> > Incidentally - stopping with the gear still engaged and clutch
> > depressed also results in unnecessary clutch release bearing wear.
> >
> > Graham
>
> Yes, it does result in unnecessary wear on the clutch. That's why you
> should be in neutral with your foot off the clutch.

Agreed.

> Our argument seems be
> over whether to use the parking brake or the service brake. The last two
> manual transmission cars I owned had Left Foot Parking brakes with a hand
> release. Not really easy for use at a stop light.

Ahhh - that's a bit odd. I'm not even sure you could sell a car over here
with that fitment.

> One of my old cars, I
> think it was an 80 Citation, had the brake release near the hood release.
> I realise that this may be a difference between the US and UK. My point
> is that the "parking brake" should only be used for holding the vehicle
> when parked.

Seems clear that the European 'handbrake' is designed to be used more
intensively. It also sounds much nicer to use than any of those oddities
you've menntioned.


Graham

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Dave C. wrote:

> > > YO!!! As I wrote elsewhere, I know not to do it, myself. But there is
> > > huge difference between not doing it and not BEING ABLE to do it. If
> > > can't do it, you shouldn't be driving. IMHO That doesn't mean I think
> > > a good idea, just something that all drivers SHOULD be able to do.

> > ...because...?

> because it's as essential to driving as steering and braking. (duh)

Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do
something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential.

I count at least three logical fallacies, and possibly more.

>
> Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do
> something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential.
>
> I count at least three logical fallacies, and possibly more.

OK, you are stopped at a stop light facing uphill on a steep hill. Someone
parks right on your ass, of course. You don't know how to properly use the
clutch and accelerator, because you "mustn't" ever use them. What to do
next? -Dave

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Ted B. wrote:

> > Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do
> > something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential.
> > I count at least three logical fallacies, and possibly more.

> OK, you are stopped at a stop light facing uphill on a steep hill. Someone
> parks right on your ass, of course. You don't know how to properly use the
> clutch and accelerator, because you "mustn't" ever use them. What to do
> next?

Well, gee, what I do next is keep my foot on the brake (or, if I'm in the
UK, apply the handbrake) until the light turns green, at which point I
drive off.

Nice try, but you specifically started this subtopic of *HOLDING* the car
on a grade using only the clutch and accelerator, and now you're going to
have to see it through.

"Ted B." wrote:

> >
> > Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do
> > something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential.
> >
> > I count at least three logical fallacies, and possibly more.
>
> OK, you are stopped at a stop light facing uphill on a steep hill. Someone
> parks right on your ass, of course. You don't know how to properly use the
> clutch and accelerator, because you "mustn't" ever use them. What to do
> next? -Dave

What *is* your problem 'Dave' ?

Simple, you inch the car a bit more up the hill. Incidentally a good example of
why it's inadvisable to pull up too close to the vehicle in front.

Graham

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Harry K wrote:
>
>> Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual.
>>
>> Hold with foot brake.
>> Engage gear.
>> While holding brake, pivot foot over to gas
>> Feed gas while easing out clutch to 'just begin to grab' point.
>> More gas, more clutch and release brake.
>
> I *know* this ! Seemingly 'Dave' has trouble believing we do it this way.
>
This is how I *always* take off from a standing start when on a hill,
I have done so in SanFrancisco, and I live in Seattle, where we have
a few hills of our own. I consider using the handbrake to be a crutch
for the less skilled operator. The sort of thing someone would do who
was only used to driving automatics, or someone who did not have the
capacity to coordinate foot movements.

Bernard

Around 7/26/2005 11:09 AM, Bernard Farquart wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Harry K wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual.
>>>
>>>Hold with foot brake.
>>>Engage gear.
>>>While holding brake, pivot foot over to gas
>>>Feed gas while easing out clutch to 'just begin to grab' point.
>>>More gas, more clutch and release brake.
>>
>>I *know* this ! Seemingly 'Dave' has trouble believing we do it this way.
>>
>
> This is how I *always* take off from a standing start when on a hill,
> I have done so in SanFrancisco, and I live in Seattle, where we have
> a few hills of our own. I consider using the handbrake to be a crutch
> for the less skilled operator. The sort of thing someone would do who
> was only used to driving automatics, or someone who did not have the
> capacity to coordinate foot movements.

The few times I've felt that I really needed to use the handbrake were
on some of downtown Seattle's steepest hills when it was raining and
someone had crept up to within inches of my bumper.



Though I can see the reasoning for using the handbrake for every stop,
Americans simply aren't taught to do so (if they're even /taught/ to
drive a stick at all!). Even if they were taught to do so, most are too
lazy to do it every time.

Heck, many people around here are too lazy (or never learned) to use the
parking brake for actual parking, and just rely on the automatic
transmission's parking pawl!

--
~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
for secure mail info) --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

> Well, gee, what I do next is keep my foot on the brake (or, if I'm in the
> UK, apply the handbrake) until the light turns green, at which point I
> drive off.
>
> Nice try, but you specifically started this subtopic of *HOLDING* the car
> on a grade using only the clutch and accelerator, and now you're going to
> have to see it through.

How are you going to do that, lacking the proper skills to use the clutch
and accelerator pedal effectively? You gotta learn to walk first, ya
now. -Dave

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Ted B. wrote:

> > Well, gee, what I do next is keep my foot on the brake (or, if I'm in
> > the UK, apply the handbrake) until the light turns green, at which
> > point I drive off.
> >
> > Nice try, but you specifically started this subtopic of *HOLDING* the
> > car on a grade using only the clutch and accelerator, and now you're
> > going to have to see it through.

> How are you going to do that, lacking the proper skills to use the clutch
> and accelerator pedal effectively?

Again, nice try, very slick, but you're shifting the topic. You did NOT
posit that it's necessary to have the proper skills to "use the clutch and
accelerator pedal effectively". You posited that "One of the first things
any manual tranny driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an
incline using JUST the clutch and accelerator." It was then pointed out to
you that holding a car steady on an incline using the clutch and
accelerator is very poor practice, which you acknowledged.

That being the case, your shift of the argument from "All drivers should
know how to hold a car steady on an incline using just the clutch and
accelerator" to "All drivers should know how to use the clutch and
accelerator effectively" is disingenuous.

Care to try again? Or shall we just send a runner down to the hardware
store for some paint remover so you can get out of that corner?