Locked-up oil pump

Michael, In my opinion It's a good idea to rebuild at this point. It sounds
like your engine hasn't been rebuilt before, at least not properly that is,
if the cooling system was once clogged by debris from the block. The
"plastic" you describe in the oiling system could be from old style timing
gears and/or old valve stem seal debris. It's possible the chunks could have
been stuck in the oil screen when "rebuilt" last or somewhere in the block
even though now, you have a metal geared timing chain. If the pump froze at
the time you pulled over and you then drove it home slowly, it's most likely
you scored your cylinder walls and damaged your bearings. I don't think
you'll be happy if you just throw a new pump on and call it good, unless
you're very lucky. Even then, you'll have problemes with the engine soon.
Good luck and let us know what happens.

Mark opined in news:HxDAd.584790$wV.125104@attbi_s54:

> Michael, In my opinion It's a good idea to rebuild at this point. It
> sounds like your engine hasn't been rebuilt before, at least not
> properly that is, if the cooling system was once clogged by debris from
> the block. The "plastic" you describe in the oiling system could be from
> old style timing gears and/or old valve stem seal debris. It's possible
> the chunks could have been stuck in the oil screen when "rebuilt" last
> or somewhere in the block even though now, you have a metal geared
> timing chain. If the pump froze at the time you pulled over and you then
> drove it home slowly, it's most likely you scored your cylinder walls
> and damaged your bearings. I don't think you'll be happy if you just
> throw a new pump on and call it good, unless you're very lucky. Even
> then, you'll have problemes with the engine soon. Good luck and let us
> know what happens.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Agree.. the bearings may be still okay or not too bad - but your rings are
shot, and you'll burn oil like crazy... only takes a few seconds of no-oil.

The cyl walls dont score until a ring breaks, which also COULD be the case ;
but the edges of the rings round off first.



--
- Yes, I'm a crusty old geezer curmudgeon.. deal with it! -

>"Agree.. the bearings may be still okay
> or not too bad - but your rings are shot,
> and you'll burn oil like crazy... only takes
> a few seconds of no-oil."

-----------------------------------------------------
Tell that to Andy Ganatelli.Isn't he the guy who drove that Viper
around for hours without oil? (LOL!)

********************

Michael,it's got to be the valve seals.Real easy to replace with heads
in place.
Best ....Brian O.
ps. Take better care of that Fairlane!

********************

To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate.
There were no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as
determined by inspection around each with a mirror), and the valve seals
are flexible - I can press on them with a dental pick and they deform
nicely.

Nothing in the breathers indicates shedding of chunks.

I checked the #1 and #5 main bearings and there was no scoring.

It's hard to see the timing gear, but I did get a litle mirror in there
and didn't see anything of the the same shape or color as the chunks.

So I conclude that I don't know where the chunks came from and that I
never will unless I tear down the engine.

On the other hand, I could just replace the pickup screen, put it all
back together and move on. If my loss of oil has led to damage, then
I'll burn oil. If I generate more chunks, the screen will keep them
out. Total cost, maybe $200 for all the parts and gaskets.

The alternative is to either rebuild the engine or get a new engine. In
either case, the expense is on the order of $1500-$3000, depending on
what direction I want to go.

I don't know what the odds are of an unfortunate event occuring if I
reassemble the current engine. The severity of the unfortunate event
would be limited to a breakdown and being late for an appointment, plus
rebuilding the engine. So, I won't drive this car to any critical
appointments until I build some confidence in it.

At the moment, I'm still contemplating. My hunch is to gamble and to
put it back together. Even if I decide to rebuild the engine, I'm not
going to commit to that expense for a while, so I might as well be
driving what I have.

Mike

Backyard Mechanic > wrote in
:

> Mark opined in news:HxDAd.584790$wV.125104@attbi_s54:
>
>> Michael, In my opinion It's a good idea to rebuild at this point. It
>> sounds like your engine hasn't been rebuilt before, at least not
>> properly that is, if the cooling system was once clogged by debris
>> from the block. The "plastic" you describe in the oiling system could
>> be from old style timing gears and/or old valve stem seal debris.
>> It's possible the chunks could have been stuck in the oil screen when
>> "rebuilt" last or somewhere in the block even though now, you have a
>> metal geared timing chain. If the pump froze at the time you pulled
>> over and you then drove it home slowly, it's most likely you scored
>> your cylinder walls and damaged your bearings. I don't think you'll
>> be happy if you just throw a new pump on and call it good, unless
>> you're very lucky. Even then, you'll have problemes with the engine
>> soon. Good luck and let us know what happens.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Agree.. the bearings may be still okay or not too bad - but your rings
> are shot, and you'll burn oil like crazy... only takes a few seconds
> of no-oil.
>
> The cyl walls dont score until a ring breaks, which also COULD be the
> case ; but the edges of the rings round off first.
>
>
>

very often with a severe overheat you will get cyl wall scoring in the
skirt area. also will do so with just many many miles use. very common on
302s. KB

--
ThunderSnake #9 Warn once, shoot twice
460 in the pkup, 460 on the stand for another pkup
and one in the shed for a fun project to yet be decided on

"Michael Bonnice" > wrote in message
news:mrVAd.5457$yW5.2458@fed1read02...
> To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate. There were
> no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as determined by inspection
> around each with a mirror), and the valve seals are flexible - I can press on
> them with a dental pick and they deform nicely.
>

How did you inspect the valve seals with out removing the valve springs?


> Nothing in the breathers indicates shedding of chunks.
>
There wouldn't be.


> I checked the #1 and #5 main bearings and there was no scoring.
>
> It's hard to see the timing gear, but I did get a litle mirror in there and
> didn't see anything of the the same shape or color as the chunks.
>
Because from where you are looking, you will not be able to properly see the cam
gear.


> So I conclude that I don't know where the chunks came from and that I never
> will unless I tear down the engine.
>
> On the other hand, I could just replace the pickup screen, put it all back
> together and move on. If my loss of oil has led to damage, then I'll burn
> oil. If I generate more chunks, the screen will keep them out. Total cost,
> maybe $200 for all the parts and gaskets.
>
> The alternative is to either rebuild the engine or get a new engine. In
> either case, the expense is on the order of $1500-$3000, depending on what
> direction I want to go.
>
> I don't know what the odds are of an unfortunate event occuring if I
> reassemble the current engine. The severity of the unfortunate event would be
> limited to a breakdown and being late for an appointment, plus rebuilding the
> engine. So, I won't drive this car to any critical appointments until I build
> some confidence in it.
>
> At the moment, I'm still contemplating. My hunch is to gamble and to put it
> back together. Even if I decide to rebuild the engine, I'm not going to
> commit to that expense for a while, so I might as well be driving what I have.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

pick one wrote:
> "Michael Bonnice" > wrote in message
> news:mrVAd.5457$yW5.2458@fed1read02...
>
>>To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate. There were
>>no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as determined by inspection
>>around each with a mirror), and the valve seals are flexible - I can press on
>>them with a dental pick and they deform nicely.
>>
>
>
> How did you inspect the valve seals with out removing the valve springs?
>
>
The seals are visible by looking through the gaps in the spring coils.
I used a mirror and a light to look at the hard-to-see spots.

>
>>Nothing in the breathers indicates shedding of chunks.
>>
>
> There wouldn't be.
>
I couldn't remember if there was some sort of plastic grommet involved
somewhere; it turns out there wasn't.

>
>
>>I checked the #1 and #5 main bearings and there was no scoring.
>>
>>It's hard to see the timing gear, but I did get a litle mirror in there and
>>didn't see anything of the the same shape or color as the chunks.
>>
>
> Because from where you are looking, you will not be able to properly see the cam
> gear.
>
>
It's not possible to see the whole thing, but it is possible to clearly
see parts of the gear. What I can see of the teeth and of the gear web
shows no sign of anything resembling the black shiney brittle material
of the chunks.

Mike

Like I said b4, It's probably left over chunks from a previous (crappy)
rebuild.


"Michael Bonnice" > wrote in message
news:Xv5Bd.5704$yW5.1066@fed1read02...
>
>
> pick one wrote:
>> "Michael Bonnice" > wrote in message
>> news:mrVAd.5457$yW5.2458@fed1read02...
>>
>>>To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate. There
>>>were no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as determined by
>>>inspection around each with a mirror), and the valve seals are flexible -
>>>I can press on them with a dental pick and they deform nicely.
>>>
>>
>>
>> How did you inspect the valve seals with out removing the valve springs?
>>
>>
> The seals are visible by looking through the gaps in the spring coils. I
> used a mirror and a light to look at the hard-to-see spots.
>
>>
>>>Nothing in the breathers indicates shedding of chunks.
>>>
>>
>> There wouldn't be.
>>
> I couldn't remember if there was some sort of plastic grommet involved
> somewhere; it turns out there wasn't.
>
>>
>>
>>>I checked the #1 and #5 main bearings and there was no scoring.
>>>
>>>It's hard to see the timing gear, but I did get a litle mirror in there
>>>and didn't see anything of the the same shape or color as the chunks.
>>>
>>
>> Because from where you are looking, you will not be able to properly see
>> the cam gear.
>>
>>
> It's not possible to see the whole thing, but it is possible to clearly
> see parts of the gear. What I can see of the teeth and of the gear web
> shows no sign of anything resembling the black shiney brittle material of
> the chunks.
>
> Mike
>