Need help interperting OBD II information

Hello Everyone,

First, thank you for trying to help me. I have a 1997
Buick Riviera with a GM 3800 II supercharged engine. Two dealers and my
local mechanic can not figure out what the problem is. The problem is
as follows:

1. The car will attempt to stall out (and sometimes does) at red
lights. Sometimes it will restart, others it will just crank. If I let
the car sit there it will eventually start.

2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
degrees.

3. If I am driving, the car will just turn off. Sometimes it will
restart on its own. Sometimes I have to pull over, wait a few seconds
and then it will start. Sometimes when I pull over, the RPM gauge is at
0 and the engine is very faintly firing.

I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
and say it is OK.

I purchased OBD II software and recorded a few pages. If you could take
a look at it I would appreciate it.

The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
freeze frame.

http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.doc

OR

http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.pdf

The doc is 700K the PDF is 1MB. Sorry they are so big. Thanks for
checking it out.

Any questions, or ideas please post.

Thanks,

Sam

> wrote:
>2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
>to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
>will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
>to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
>degrees.

When the car doesn't start, is there fuel pressure? Yes, I know you hear
the pump prime, but if you check the pressure at the rail, is it good?

>I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
>the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
>but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
>and say it is OK.

How did they check it? It could be intermittent. Clearly whatever is
bad is intermittent, and the position sensor is the first thing I'd have
swapped.

The OTHER reason you could get that error code is if you have some other
position sensor (sometimes an RPM sensor, etc.) which is disgreeing with
the crankshaft sensor.

>The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
>RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
>freeze frame.

I have no graphics here, but given the basic behaviour, I'd have swapped
the position sensor out. If it turns out not to be the problem, well,
now you have a spare in the garage.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 20 Nov 2006 17:00:42 -0800, wrote:

>Hello Everyone,
>
> First, thank you for trying to help me. I have a 1997
>Buick Riviera with a GM 3800 II supercharged engine. Two dealers and my
>local mechanic can not figure out what the problem is. The problem is
>as follows:
>
>1. The car will attempt to stall out (and sometimes does) at red
>lights. Sometimes it will restart, others it will just crank. If I let
>the car sit there it will eventually start.
>
>2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
>to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
>will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
>to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
>degrees.
>
>3. If I am driving, the car will just turn off. Sometimes it will
>restart on its own. Sometimes I have to pull over, wait a few seconds
>and then it will start. Sometimes when I pull over, the RPM gauge is at
>0 and the engine is very faintly firing.
>
>I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
>the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
>but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
>and say it is OK.
>
>I purchased OBD II software and recorded a few pages. If you could take
>a look at it I would appreciate it.
>
>The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
>RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
>freeze frame.
>
>http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.doc
>
>OR
>
>http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.pdf
>
>The doc is 700K the PDF is 1MB. Sorry they are so big. Thanks for
>checking it out.
>
>Any questions, or ideas please post.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sam

B1S2 fuel trim reads 99%

that is way out of bounds for a normal engine.

Correction to #2, the temp is 170, not 160.

Thanks,

Sam

wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> First, thank you for trying to help me. I have a 1997
> Buick Riviera with a GM 3800 II supercharged engine. Two dealers and my
> local mechanic can not figure out what the problem is. The problem is
> as follows:
>
> 1. The car will attempt to stall out (and sometimes does) at red
> lights. Sometimes it will restart, others it will just crank. If I let
> the car sit there it will eventually start.
>
> 2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
> to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
> will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
> to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
> degrees.
>
> 3. If I am driving, the car will just turn off. Sometimes it will
> restart on its own. Sometimes I have to pull over, wait a few seconds
> and then it will start. Sometimes when I pull over, the RPM gauge is at
> 0 and the engine is very faintly firing.
>
> I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
> the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
> but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
> and say it is OK.
>
> I purchased OBD II software and recorded a few pages. If you could take
> a look at it I would appreciate it.
>
> The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
> RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
> freeze frame.
>
> http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.doc
>
> OR
>
> http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.pdf
>
> The doc is 700K the PDF is 1MB. Sorry they are so big. Thanks for
> checking it out.
>
> Any questions, or ideas please post.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sam

The job is about $380. The part is cheap but the labor is crazy. That's
a little too much to swap without knowing for sure. =(

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > wrote:
> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
> >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
> >will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
> >to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
> >degrees.
>
> When the car doesn't start, is there fuel pressure? Yes, I know you hear
> the pump prime, but if you check the pressure at the rail, is it good?
>
> >I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
> >the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
> >but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
> >and say it is OK.
>
> How did they check it? It could be intermittent. Clearly whatever is
> bad is intermittent, and the position sensor is the first thing I'd have
> swapped.
>
> The OTHER reason you could get that error code is if you have some other
> position sensor (sometimes an RPM sensor, etc.) which is disgreeing with
> the crankshaft sensor.
>
> >The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
> >RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
> >freeze frame.
>
> I have no graphics here, but given the basic behaviour, I'd have swapped
> the position sensor out. If it turns out not to be the problem, well,
> now you have a spare in the garage.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I dont know much about O2 sensors. Are there actually two physical
sensors? B1S1 & B1S2?

Thanks,

Sam

Lawrence Glickman wrote:
> On 20 Nov 2006 17:00:42 -0800, wrote:
>
> >Hello Everyone,
> >
> > First, thank you for trying to help me. I have a 1997
> >Buick Riviera with a GM 3800 II supercharged engine. Two dealers and my
> >local mechanic can not figure out what the problem is. The problem is
> >as follows:
> >
> >1. The car will attempt to stall out (and sometimes does) at red
> >lights. Sometimes it will restart, others it will just crank. If I let
> >the car sit there it will eventually start.
> >
> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
> >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
> >will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
> >to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
> >degrees.
> >
> >3. If I am driving, the car will just turn off. Sometimes it will
> >restart on its own. Sometimes I have to pull over, wait a few seconds
> >and then it will start. Sometimes when I pull over, the RPM gauge is at
> >0 and the engine is very faintly firing.
> >
> >I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
> >the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
> >but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
> >and say it is OK.
> >
> >I purchased OBD II software and recorded a few pages. If you could take
> >a look at it I would appreciate it.
> >
> >The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
> >RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
> >freeze frame.
> >
> >http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.doc
> >
> >OR
> >
> >http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.pdf
> >
> >The doc is 700K the PDF is 1MB. Sorry they are so big. Thanks for
> >checking it out.
> >
> >Any questions, or ideas please post.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Sam
>
> B1S2 fuel trim reads 99%
>
> that is way out of bounds for a normal engine.

Not sure how they checked on the crankshaft sensor. I have not checked
fuel pressure, usually it happens at the grocery store or the side of
the road and I can't do any testing. =(


Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > wrote:
> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
> >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
> >will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
> >to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
> >degrees.
>
> When the car doesn't start, is there fuel pressure? Yes, I know you hear
> the pump prime, but if you check the pressure at the rail, is it good?
>
> >I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
> >the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
> >but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
> >and say it is OK.
>
> How did they check it? It could be intermittent. Clearly whatever is
> bad is intermittent, and the position sensor is the first thing I'd have
> swapped.
>
> The OTHER reason you could get that error code is if you have some other
> position sensor (sometimes an RPM sensor, etc.) which is disgreeing with
> the crankshaft sensor.
>
> >The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
> >RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
> >freeze frame.
>
> I have no graphics here, but given the basic behaviour, I'd have swapped
> the position sensor out. If it turns out not to be the problem, well,
> now you have a spare in the garage.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 20 Nov 2006 17:59:42 -0800, wrote:

>The job is about $380. The part is cheap but the labor is crazy. That's
>a little too much to swap without knowing for sure. =(

On my Vulcan V6, the CPS is a ******* to get to. But it is
=possible=, so I would buy the part and do it myself. YMMV.

No way I'm paying that kind of $$$ for a CPS swap. Not in this
lifetime.

Yes it would be a PITA. Yes I could do it. Might take an hour, going
in through the top of the engine bay. Might take less time if I could
get at it from under the vehicle. Either way, I would buy the part
and try some acrobatics to see how I could get to the sensor, which on
my engine, is just held in place with one lousy screw. Getting to
that screw is another story.

Lg


>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> > wrote:
>> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
>> >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
>> >will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
>> >to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
>> >degrees.
>>
>> When the car doesn't start, is there fuel pressure? Yes, I know you hear
>> the pump prime, but if you check the pressure at the rail, is it good?
>>
>> >I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
>> >the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
>> >but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
>> >and say it is OK.
>>
>> How did they check it? It could be intermittent. Clearly whatever is
>> bad is intermittent, and the position sensor is the first thing I'd have
>> swapped.
>>
>> The OTHER reason you could get that error code is if you have some other
>> position sensor (sometimes an RPM sensor, etc.) which is disgreeing with
>> the crankshaft sensor.
>>
>> >The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
>> >RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
>> >freeze frame.
>>
>> I have no graphics here, but given the basic behaviour, I'd have swapped
>> the position sensor out. If it turns out not to be the problem, well,
>> now you have a spare in the garage.
>> --scott
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I feel your pain. The CPS is behind the harmonic balancer. You have to
take that off to get to it.


Lawrence Glickman wrote:
> On 20 Nov 2006 17:59:42 -0800, wrote:
>
> >The job is about $380. The part is cheap but the labor is crazy. That's
> >a little too much to swap without knowing for sure. =(
>
> On my Vulcan V6, the CPS is a ******* to get to. But it is
> =possible=, so I would buy the part and do it myself. YMMV.
>
> No way I'm paying that kind of $$$ for a CPS swap. Not in this
> lifetime.
>
> Yes it would be a PITA. Yes I could do it. Might take an hour, going
> in through the top of the engine bay. Might take less time if I could
> get at it from under the vehicle. Either way, I would buy the part
> and try some acrobatics to see how I could get to the sensor, which on
> my engine, is just held in place with one lousy screw. Getting to
> that screw is another story.
>
> Lg
>
>
> >Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >> > wrote:
> >> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
> >> >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
> >> >will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
> >> >to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
> >> >degrees.
> >>
> >> When the car doesn't start, is there fuel pressure? Yes, I know you hear
> >> the pump prime, but if you check the pressure at the rail, is it good?
> >>
> >> >I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
> >> >the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
> >> >but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
> >> >and say it is OK.
> >>
> >> How did they check it? It could be intermittent. Clearly whatever is
> >> bad is intermittent, and the position sensor is the first thing I'd have
> >> swapped.
> >>
> >> The OTHER reason you could get that error code is if you have some other
> >> position sensor (sometimes an RPM sensor, etc.) which is disgreeing with
> >> the crankshaft sensor.
> >>
> >> >The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
> >> >RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
> >> >freeze frame.
> >>
> >> I have no graphics here, but given the basic behaviour, I'd have swapped
> >> the position sensor out. If it turns out not to be the problem, well,
> >> now you have a spare in the garage.
> >> --scott
> >> --
> >> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 20 Nov 2006 18:02:06 -0800, wrote:

>
>I dont know much about O2 sensors. Are there actually two physical
>sensors? B1S1 & B1S2?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sam

On my vehicle Sam, there are 2 sensors for each bank of the engine.
Bank One, the bank (row) of cylinders with cylinder 1 as defined by
the firing order, has B1S1 on the exhaust manifold, and then B1S2 just
after the catalytic converter for THAT bank.

IOW, I have 4 O2 sensors, and TWO cat cons.
2 sensors and 1 cat con for each bank (row of cylinders).

Not too hard to get to, but when I think of swapping them out, you
know, it is all becoming a PITA to my old body.

Lg


>
>Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>> On 20 Nov 2006 17:00:42 -0800, wrote:
>>
>> >Hello Everyone,
>> >
>> > First, thank you for trying to help me. I have a 1997
>> >Buick Riviera with a GM 3800 II supercharged engine. Two dealers and my
>> >local mechanic can not figure out what the problem is. The problem is
>> >as follows:
>> >
>> >1. The car will attempt to stall out (and sometimes does) at red
>> >lights. Sometimes it will restart, others it will just crank. If I let
>> >the car sit there it will eventually start.
>> >
>> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car
>> >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it
>> >will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down
>> >to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200
>> >degrees.
>> >
>> >3. If I am driving, the car will just turn off. Sometimes it will
>> >restart on its own. Sometimes I have to pull over, wait a few seconds
>> >and then it will start. Sometimes when I pull over, the RPM gauge is at
>> >0 and the engine is very faintly firing.
>> >
>> >I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced
>> >the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor
>> >but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor
>> >and say it is OK.
>> >
>> >I purchased OBD II software and recorded a few pages. If you could take
>> >a look at it I would appreciate it.
>> >
>> >The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500
>> >RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the
>> >freeze frame.
>> >
>> >http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.doc
>> >
>> >OR
>> >
>> >http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.pdf
>> >
>> >The doc is 700K the PDF is 1MB. Sorry they are so big. Thanks for
>> >checking it out.
>> >
>> >Any questions, or ideas please post.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >
>> >Sam
>>
>> B1S2 fuel trim reads 99%
>>
>> that is way out of bounds for a normal engine.