TOYOTA-all ELECTRIC CAR- soon available

soon available.

I understand that Toyota will be adding a new feature to their Prius
hybrid.

You'll be able to:
1.TURN OFF the gasoline engine and

2 charge the battery with a wind generator and/or photovoltaic panel
and/or electric generating exercise machine (i.e. treadmill, etc.) and
get 100 FREE miles ON THE BATTERY ALONE!

Hopefully, they will have a REMOVEABLE battery pack in the car so
you'll be able to charge another battery or two, while driving on a
charged one.



Email Toyota and congratulate them and encourage them to get this on
the market ASAP !

> wrote in message
ups.com...

> soon available.

How soon?

> I understand that Toyota will be adding a new feature to their Prius
> hybrid.

Where are you getting this information?

> You'll be able to:
> 1.TURN OFF the gasoline engine and

> 2 charge the battery with a wind generator and/or photovoltaic panel
> and/or electric generating exercise machine (i.e. treadmill, etc.) and
> get 100 FREE miles ON THE BATTERY ALONE!

100 miles? Not unless they add a lot more batteries than the current Prius
or find far better batteries.

Assume a Prius can get 50 mpg on the highway (I think this is optimistic,
but go with it). This means that the engine consumes 2 gallons of gasoline
to go 100 miles. 1 gallon of gasoline provides about 125,000 BTUs. Two
gallons provides about 250,000 BTUs. Assuming the Prius is 25% efficient
(25% of the original energy in the fuel actually finally is used to move the
car), then it actually used 63,000 BTUs to move the car 100 miles. Assuming
the electric drivetrain is 90% efficient, the batteries will need to provide
around 70,000 BTUs of energy. 70,000 BTUs is approximately 20.5
kilowatt-hours of energy. NiMH batteries as used by the Prius are 1.2V
cells, so you need a total of around 17,000 Ah worth of batteries capacity
(under ideal conditions). Typical D size NiMH batteries have an ideal
capacity of around 10 Ah each. Therefore under ideal conditions (new
batteries, fully charged, ideal discharge rate, etc) you would need 1,700 D
sized NiMH batteries to move a Prius 100 miles - assuming you drive slowly
(55 or less), accelerate moderately, don't need to climb hills, don't need
A/C, don't use to many accessories, etc., etc. 1700 D sized batteries will
weight between 550 lb and 600 lb. This is far larger than the current Prius
battery pack. The current Prius battery pack consists of 38 NiMH modules
from Panasonic. Each module consists of six 1.2 V cells connected in series.
The module has a nominal voltage of 7.2 V, capacity of 6.5 Ah, weighs 1.04
kg, and has dimensions of 19.6 mm (W) X 106 mm (H) X 275 mm (L). The weight
of the complete battery pack is 53.3 kg (around 120 lbs). The energy content
of this pack is around 1,500 Ah. Under ideal highway conditions this might
be enough to go 15 miles (no hills, gentle accelerations, no winds, etc.).
To go 100 miles, you are going to need a battery back 5 to 10 times as
large. This means a battery pack that weighs between 600 and 1200 lb in
total (at least 480 lb more than the current battery pack). Even adding only
480 lb to the weight of the car will reduce the range, so you'll probably
need to add at least 600 lb of batteries to get to 100 miles (again under
ideal conditions). But then adding this much weight will require a larger
car with more air resistance (if you plan to maintain interior space) and a
stronger structure, which will require even more batteries to go 100 miles.
So in the end, if you want a Prius-like car to go a 100 miles on batteries
alone, you are probably looking at least a 1000 lb battery pack and a car
that is 1200 lb heavier. And this is under ideal conditions. Climbing a few
hills, accelerating hard, having batteries with a little age, driving on
windy days, using the A/C, etc., etc., etc. will all reduce the range. And
don't forget the cost of the batteries. I don't know what the current Prius
batter pack costs. I have seen estimates as low as $1000 and as high as
$6000. I estimate that in the best case, a battery pack with enough
capacity to go 100 miles will cost at least $8,000 (and likely more). Even
at $4 a gallon, you are going to have to save a lot of gas to offset $8000
worth of batteries. If you are willing to but up with the limited range and
speed limitations of your 100 mile range electric car, I believe you could
design a gasoline powered car that would get 50 mpg (or a diesel that will
do even better). Given a 50 mpg car, you could go 100,000 miles on $8000
worth of gas. Even if the electricity to recharge the 100 mile range
electric car was free, you would only just break even (assuming there were
no other cost adders in the electric car design).

And even if the 100 mile range was true, the electricity to recharge the
batteries won't be FREE. Even if you use solar or wind power to produce the
electricity, you'll need to buy and maintain the power generation equipment.
This is even close to free.

> Hopefully, they will have a REMOVEABLE battery pack in the car so
> you'll be able to charge another battery or two, while driving on a
> charged one.

Not likely, unless you are willing to swap out 1000 lb worth of batteries
and pay thousands of dollars for each extra battery pack.

> Email Toyota and congratulate them and encourage them to get this on
> the market ASAP

I suggest you email Toyota and tell them someone is spreading fairy tales.

Ed

Ed;
I'm sure there will be a battery modification. Maybe it will be solar
assisted, the car pulling with a lightweight trailer with 100 sq feet
of pv's. behind.
Have you seen the solar assisted Prius?
internet explorer keywords: SOLAR ASSISTED PRIUS.

Besides- I keep seeing people all over the internet talking about how
their electric car gets 80 miles per charge WITHOUT solar assist while
driving.

writes:

> Ed;
> I'm sure there will be a battery modification. Maybe it will be solar
> assisted, the car pulling with a lightweight trailer with 100 sq feet
> of pv's. behind.
> Have you seen the solar assisted Prius?
> internet explorer keywords: SOLAR ASSISTED PRIUS.
>
> Besides- I keep seeing people all over the internet talking about how
> their electric car gets 80 miles per charge WITHOUT solar assist while
> driving.

Assuming this is accurate, I would be willing to bet that these
vehicles aren't like the Toyota Prius. Probably cars with less
carrying capacity and performance, with much larger batteries.

--
-Stephen H. Westin
Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not
represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.

You definitely can build an electric car that will go 80 miles on a
charge. But that is not what you seemed to be describing in your
original post. I thought you were implying that Toyota was on the verge
of incresing the Prius' range on batteries alone to 100 miles. Electric
cars that can go 100 miles are not like the Prius. For instance (from
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/...s/hyb_ev1.html
):

"The EV1 was an all-electric vehicle conceived, developed and built by
GM, and offered for lease through Saturn retailers in California and
Arizona beginning in December 1996 and through August 2004.

"The lead acid EV1 required a 5 to 6 hour charge, which offered a
driving range of 55 to 95 miles. The nickel-metal hydride battery pack
required a 6 to 8 hour charge, which provided a driving range of 75 to
130 miles......"

The EV-1 was a relatively small 2 seat car with a battery pack with 20
times the capacity of the battery pack in the Prius. The range drivers
actually got was highly dependent on dirivng style, driving conditions,
and the age of the batteries. The Prius is a much larger car. Getting
it's range up to 100 miles on batteries alone will require a
significant increase in the number of batteries. Right now NiMH
batteries appear to be the best batteries available for electric
vehicles. Other battery chemistries are under investigation, but I
would not suggest that you hold your breath waiting for something so
much better than electric cars go from a curiosity to a practical
reality overnight. On the other hand, changes in society could make
electric cars practical rather quickly. If people only needed to make
short commutes and short trips to shopping, dining, and entertainment
locations, electric cars would be useful. I don't expect battery
powered vehicle to ever be practical for long trips.

The solar assisted Prius is a joke. There is no chance that all the
complicated equipment needed to add solar panels to the Prius will ever
generate enough energy to make it worth the cost. I read the article at
http://www.climateark.org/articles/r...p?linkid=46588 . Under
ideal conditions, the solor panels he is using will only generate 360
watts. This is about 1/2 horsepower. If you assume my original
calculations are at least in the ballpark, I figure the following:

At 55 mph I estimate that the Prius needs about 205 W-h worth of energy
to go one mile. At 55 mph, and under ideal conditions, the solor panels
are able to provide about 6.5 W-h per mile (i.e. 0.0065 kW-h per mile).
For a 15 mile trip, the total energy collected by the solar panels
would be on the order of 100 W-h (i.e. 0.1 kW-h, or about 341 BTUs, the
amount of useful energy you could get by using about 0.01 gallons of
gas in the Prius's gasoline engine). This is enough "extra" energy to
go about another 0.5 miles. And just how often will you be able to
operate the car under "ideal" conditions (especially in Canada where
the guy who built the solar assisted Prius lives)? You'll be lucky to
average 150 watts out of the panel during daylight portion of a "good"
day. Total energy collected over the course of a typical day will
probably be on the order of 1.5 kW-h (assuming the car is parked in the
open and the solar cells are used to charge the batteries while the car
is parked). So for all the extra complication, you might be able to get
an extra 7 miles of range out of a Prius - on a good day. You could do
the same thing with a couple of extra batteries that you charge at home
in the evening.

Ed

wrote in
oups.com:

> Ed;
> I'm sure there will be a battery modification. Maybe it will be solar
> assisted, the car pulling with a lightweight trailer with 100 sq feet
> of pv's. behind.



Solar assist is great until you have a solar-deficient day. Nights aren't
very solar either.



> Have you seen the solar assisted Prius?
> internet explorer keywords: SOLAR ASSISTED PRIUS.



Search engine keywords, you mean. Internet Explorer is not a search engine.


>
> Besides- I keep seeing people all over the internet talking about how
> their electric car gets 80 miles per charge WITHOUT solar assist while
> driving.


Yeah, and everybody here whines about how their sooper-expensive Prius only
gets only a little more mpg than a Corolla.

http://www.climateark.org/articles/r...p?linkid=46588
I did a bit of math on this Lapp guy's conversion, and it looks like he'd
have to drive about 30,000 miles on solar power alone just to break even on
the gas he saves versus his $3,000 Cdn investment. We pay about $4 Cdn per
US gallon up here. Then there's the battery replacement. And what about
lost cargo space?



--
TeGGeR®

. Getting
it's range up to 100 miles on batteries alone will require a
significant increase in the number of batteries.

How about only 5 standard deep cycle lead-acid batteries (250#), a
sunny warm day, and sufficient collection surface of efficient pv
panels to keep the batteries charged while driving? Like I say- a very
lightweigt trailer loaded with pv's- towed behind the car.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> . Getting
> it's range up to 100 miles on batteries alone will require a
> significant increase in the number of batteries.
>
> How about only 5 standard deep cycle lead-acid batteries (250#), a
> sunny warm day, and sufficient collection surface of efficient pv
> panels to keep the batteries charged while driving? Like I say- a very
> lightweigt trailer loaded with pv's- towed behind the car.

For a Prius like car, 5 standard deep cell batteries aren't going to get you
very far (maybe 200 Ah - good for maybe 15 miles) , so you are essentially
trying to run the car on solar cells alone, with the batteries acting as a
big capacitor to supply peak loads and get you past the cloudy bits of the
trip. So how many solar cell will you need to run a Prius size car a 100
miles at a reasonable speed (say 55 mph)?

A good solar panel might weight about 0.1 lb per watt and measure about 7.5
sq in per watt. To maintain 55 mph, I previously estimated a Prius like car
will require approximately 13,400 watts (18 Hp or so). This means you would
need around 1340 lbs worth of solar cells and a flat area of around 700 sq
ft, which is a 87 foot long, 8 foot wide trailer if you lay the solar cell
flat. I suppose you could do some clever angling of the panels to cut the
length somewhat, to maybe 60 feet. Of course trying to pull a trailer this
big that weighs half as much as the car is going to drastically increase
your power requirements. So you might as well figure on a trailer 120 feet
long and limit your speed to 25 mph (to reduce power requirements). Should
be an interesting trip.

Even if I am off by a factor of five (and I am not), this will not be a
practical arrangement. Sometime reality sucks.

If you want to see what a working solar powered car that can go 100 miles
looks like, see:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9480489/
https://www.eere-pmc.energy.gov/nasc05/Default.asp

These are basically one person, lightweight, very aerodynamic vehicles. They
are using the very best solar cells. They probably require less than 10% of
the power of a Prius like car to go 55 mph (say 2 Hp). 2 Hp is roughly 1500
watts. This would require a car about 10 foot long by 8 foot wide.

Ed

Obviously Toyota has something else in mind besides a lead-acid
battery. My brother-in-law said he read the article about the solar
assisted Prius. I don't know where he came up with the 100 mile
figure.My guess is that there will be enough battery storage and pv
surface to get you around on short trips with plenty of time parking in
the sunshine between trips. He did say that you'll be able to put the
gasoline engine on "disconnect" and it will re-connect and run as soon
as the battery reaches a specified low charge point.

Mike

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> Obviously Toyota has something else in mind besides a lead-acid
> battery. My brother-in-law said he read the article about the solar
> assisted Prius. I don't know where he came up with the 100 mile
> figure.My guess is that there will be enough battery storage and pv
> surface to get you around on short trips with plenty of time parking in
> the sunshine between trips. He did say that you'll be able to put the
> gasoline engine on "disconnect" and it will re-connect and run as soon
> as the battery reaches a specified low charge point.

I'd sure like to see the article. I suspect your brother in law is leaving
out some important information. If you are willing to make a large
investement in solar cells, and drive a car that is more like an Insight
than a Prius, I suppose you could have a solar powered car of a sort (but
the solar cells would be left at home and you'd run the car on batteries).

Let me know if you find the article. The Solar Powered Car article I did
fond was just total BS.

Ed