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Ethanol in fuel, and E85



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 4th 05, 04:22 PM
Don Stauffer in Minneapolis
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Default Ethanol in fuel, and E85

Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold
ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What
specific problems does ethanol create?

I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85
cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in mixture
seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff.

At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start changing
mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I am
afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated 20%
ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a car
for eight to ten years, this is a concern.

Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on
E85 cars?
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  #2  
Old March 4th 05, 09:49 PM
Steve W.
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"Don Stauffer in Minneapolis" > wrote in message
...
> Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold
> ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What
> specific problems does ethanol create?
>
> I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85
> cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in

mixture
> seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff.
>
> At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start

changing
> mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I

am
> afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated

20%
> ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a

car
> for eight to ten years, this is a concern.
>
> Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on
> E85 cars?
>

Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in
vehicles not designed for it. Sound's like your Gov is a moron, I would
write a nice letter to him and to a few papers about who is going to
provide repairs to vehicles damaged by the fuel.

The E85 vehicles have stainless fuel lines, different injectors and
different programming. Also keep in mind that a vehicle will burn
roughly twice as much alcohol as gasoline. So your mileage with 20% will
be about 2 mpg lower than with straight gasoline.


--
Steve Williams



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  #3  
Old March 5th 05, 01:30 AM
Daniel J. Stern
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On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Steve W. wrote:

> > Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold
> > ater 2012.


> Sound's like your Gov is a moron


No, it sounds like he's smart as all hell. He knows that Archer Daniels
Midland not only produces the vast majority of fuel ethanol in the US, but
also showers rich financial rewards on politicians who mandate the use of
ADM's products. He also knows that mandating ethanol is very popular with
farmers, which means easy votes.

> Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in
> vehicles not designed for it.


No, ethanol itself is not especially corrosive, per se. However, it is
aggressive to many plastics and elastomers not specifically designed to
handle it, causes lubricity problems with moving parts in fuel systems
(fuel pumps, injectors, etc.), and is highly hygroscopic. That last
property is where the corrosion comes from. Not from the alcohol itself,
but from the water the alcohol absorbs. What's more, alcohol contains less
energy per unit volume than gasoline, so ethanol-blended fuel yields
poorer specific fuel economy.

  #4  
Old March 5th 05, 03:28 PM
mic canic
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the d.c vehicles have a 3.3 ffv vehicle /engine set up and will run on 85%
ethenol with the computer tyaking care of it all

Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote:

> Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold
> ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What
> specific problems does ethanol create?
>
> I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85
> cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in mixture
> seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff.
>
> At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start changing
> mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I am
> afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated 20%
> ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a car
> for eight to ten years, this is a concern.
>
> Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on
> E85 cars?


  #5  
Old March 5th 05, 03:55 PM
Don Stauffer in Minneapolis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Steve W. wrote:
> "Don Stauffer in Minneapolis" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold
>>ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What
>>specific problems does ethanol create?
>>
>>I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85
>>cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in

>
> mixture
>
>>seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff.
>>
>>At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start

>
> changing
>
>>mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I

>
> am
>
>>afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated

>
> 20%
>
>> ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a

>
> car
>
>>for eight to ten years, this is a concern.
>>
>>Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on
>>E85 cars?
>>

>
> Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in
> vehicles not designed for it. Sound's like your Gov is a moron, I would
> write a nice letter to him and to a few papers about who is going to
> provide repairs to vehicles damaged by the fuel.
>
> The E85 vehicles have stainless fuel lines, different injectors and
> different programming. Also keep in mind that a vehicle will burn
> roughly twice as much alcohol as gasoline. So your mileage with 20% will
> be about 2 mpg lower than with straight gasoline.
>
>

I have heard of the corrosion problem, but what materials will it
corrode? I run methanol in my race car, and it is very bad on rubber,
but okay with synthetics like neoprene. It does seem to have some
problems with steel, none with brass or copper, none with fiberglas.
How is ethanol compared to methanol? Does ethanol corrode die cast
alloys? Steel?

I thought car mfgs had replaced all plastics and organics a number of
years ago with materials that were impervious to ethanol, in order to
let cars run 15%. Are these materials only good up to 15%, or is it
other materials that corrode?
  #6  
Old March 5th 05, 07:45 PM
Ashton Crusher
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Default

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:49:22 -0500, "Steve W." >
wrote:

>
>"Don Stauffer in Minneapolis" > wrote in message
...
>> Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold
>> ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What
>> specific problems does ethanol create?
>>
>> I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85
>> cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in

>mixture
>> seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff.
>>
>> At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start

>changing
>> mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I

>am
>> afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated

>20%
>> ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a

>car
>> for eight to ten years, this is a concern.
>>
>> Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on
>> E85 cars?
>>

>Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in


There are two primary kinds of fuel alcohol. Methyl Alcohol and Ethyl
Alcohol. Ethyl alcohol isn't all the corrosive but Methyl is very
corrosive. Most of the blends use Ethyl (hence the name Ethanol)
because to use Methyl you need the fuel system designed pretty much
from the ground up with parts able to withstand the corrosiveness.



>vehicles not designed for it. Sound's like your Gov is a moron, I would
>write a nice letter to him and to a few papers about who is going to
>provide repairs to vehicles damaged by the fuel.
>
>The E85 vehicles have stainless fuel lines, different injectors and
>different programming. Also keep in mind that a vehicle will burn
>roughly twice as much alcohol as gasoline. So your mileage with 20% will
>be about 2 mpg lower than with straight gasoline.


  #7  
Old March 6th 05, 05:12 PM
HLS
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Posts: n/a
Default

Alcohols are corrosive to certain metals, such as aluminum, whether or not
water is present. And, they can attack some elastomers, such as certain
Nylon
compositions.

It is a problem that is easily solved through proper materials engineering.
When the alcohol drive first started in Brasil, they realized quickly that
some changes would have to be made, and engineering made easy work of it.


 




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