Online TSB's?

Is there a free online source anywhere for TSB's? I mean the actual text of
them? I've found a couple listed on the NHTSA site that I think may be
relevant to my car (2004 Taurus) but haven't been able to find the actual
bulletins unless I want to subscribe to a service.

They're these:

Service Bulletin Num : 04224, NHTSA Item Number: 10013397
Service Bulletin Num : 04223, NHTSA Item Number: 10013395

in case some kind soul can look them up for me.

Many thanks...

MM

junquemaile AT cox.net

asdf > wrote in article
>...
> Is there a free online source anywhere for TSB's? I mean the actual text
of
> them? I've found a couple listed on the NHTSA site that I think may be
> relevant to my car (2004 Taurus) but haven't been able to find the actual

> bulletins unless I want to subscribe to a service.
>

That's funny!!!!!

OEMs don't even want to allow independent, professional repair shops to BUY
the technical information that is necessary to repair today's cars........

......and you think they might be willing to post the information
somewhere....FOR FREE????


ROFL !!!!!!!!!


Associations representing independent repair shops find it necessary to
bring OEMs to court in order to obtain the information so independents can
offer car owners some sort of aftermarket alternative.

Can you even begin to imagine what repair costs would be if the OEMs could
monopolize repairs with their own specific brand shops?


--
Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E.
Race Car Chassis Analysis & Setup Services
Chassis Blueprinting Services (as in engine blueprinting)

"Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E." wrote:
>
> asdf > wrote in article
> >...
> > Is there a free online source anywhere for TSB's? I mean the actual text
> of
> > them? I've found a couple listed on the NHTSA site that I think may be
> > relevant to my car (2004 Taurus) but haven't been able to find the actual

THe NHTSA numbers don't translate into Ford numbers. It is
better to go to Alldata. Thier numbers match up with Fords.
After you have the Ford numbers do a google search. There
are a lot of TSB posted on the web if you search for the
right name. You can also pay NHTSA for copies, but it is
pricey. And finally, if you have the TSB number, a local
Ford dealer should be willing to provide the details.


> > bulletins unless I want to subscribe to a service.
> >
>
> That's funny!!!!!
>
> OEMs don't even want to allow independent, professional repair shops to BUY
> the technical information that is necessary to repair today's cars........

This is not true for Ford or GM. Both have online sites
where you can buy subscriptions to TSBs. I think Ford
charges you $10 for 3 day access and you can download as
many TSBs as you want. The GM site is similar. In the UK
Honda actually provides FREE access to shop manuals. For
several years I subscribed to Ford TSBs. Now if you are
talking Toyota - well they don't want to even admit TSBs
exist, much less provide them to the public. But then
Toyotas are perfect, so no TSBs are needed.

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdi...il/default.asp
http://www.acdelcotds.com/index.asp
http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/iss..._mo/TLcme.html
(this is free)
http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals.html (this is
free)

Regards,

Ed White

C. E. White > wrote in article
>...
>
>
> "Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E." wrote:
> >
> > asdf > wrote in article
> > >...
> > > Is there a free online source anywhere for TSB's? I mean the actual
text
> > of
> > > them? I've found a couple listed on the NHTSA site that I think may
be
> > > relevant to my car (2004 Taurus) but haven't been able to find the
actual
>
> THe NHTSA numbers don't translate into Ford numbers. It is
> better to go to Alldata. Thier numbers match up with Fords.
> After you have the Ford numbers do a google search. There
> are a lot of TSB posted on the web if you search for the
> right name. You can also pay NHTSA for copies, but it is
> pricey. And finally, if you have the TSB number, a local
> Ford dealer should be willing to provide the details.
>
>
> > > bulletins unless I want to subscribe to a service.
> > >
> >
> > That's funny!!!!!
> >
> > OEMs don't even want to allow independent, professional repair shops to
BUY
> > the technical information that is necessary to repair today's
cars........
>
> This is not true for Ford or GM. Both have online sites
> where you can buy subscriptions to TSBs. I think Ford
> charges you $10 for 3 day access and you can download as
> many TSBs as you want. The GM site is similar. In the UK
> Honda actually provides FREE access to shop manuals. For
> several years I subscribed to Ford TSBs. Now if you are
> talking Toyota - well they don't want to even admit TSBs
> exist, much less provide them to the public. But then
> Toyotas are perfect, so no TSBs are needed.
>
> http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdi...il/default.asp
> http://www.acdelcotds.com/index.asp
> http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/iss..._mo/TLcme.html
> (this is free)
> http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals.html (this is
> free)
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed White
>


I wasn't referring to access to TSBs......Federal law makes the access to
TSBs mandatory.

TSBs tell you WHAT is wrong, but I was referring to the information that
tells you HOW to fix it that is being held back by manufacturers.

Two completely different things.......

I am referring to acquiring repair information that is necessary to
diagnose, repair, and adjust today's cars - not decade-old Hondas as listed
under Honda's "FREE" service manuals on the link you provided.

Find me information on the diagnosis, repair and adjustment of the latest
Honda fuel, ignition and emmissions control systems.....

......Professional shops cannot access it, so I doubt if you can.

+++++++++++

The May 2005 issue of Motor Age magazine - a subscription-only, trade-only
publication - has a blurb on the latest volley in the information-access
battle.

".....The Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act is being sponsored by
New Jersey Assemblyman Reed Gusciora (D - Mercer, N.J.) and if passed,
would require all motor vehicle manufacturers to provide vehicle owners,
repair facilities, and the Division of Consumer Affairs with all
information relating to servicing the vehicle....


......Gusciora argues the legislation is necessary to allow consumers better
repair options for their vehicles.

"Without access to this information, car owners are forced to patronize new
car dealerships which are frequently more expensive and less convenient for
the consumer."

++++++++++++++++++++

This is NOT exclusive to the automotive service industry.....

A friend of mine bought a new office copier with all the bells and
whistles. He also bought a service contract from the people who sold him
that copier.

After a year, he was unsatisfied with the service he was receiving, but
when he began to shop around for a new service contract, he was told that
he needed to acquire the access code - which was set by the current service
contract provider.

Without that service code password, NOBODY but the original service
contract provider could access the inner workings of that copier to service
it.

Does ANYBODY reading this actually believe that the original service
contract provider willingly gave up the access code so my friend could sign
a service contract with somebody else?

The automotive service business is headed down that same path.

Some day, the dealership might be able to enter a secret password that only
allows them to access the computer and download stored trouble codes or
make the adjustments necessary to effect a repair.

In the grand scheme of things, access to TSBs is a minor issue........

.....and NOT what I was referring to in my original post.


B.P.

"Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E." wrote:

> > http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdi...il/default.asp
> > http://www.acdelcotds.com/index.asp
> > http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/iss..._mo/TLcme.html
> > (this is free)
> > http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals.html (this is
> > free)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Ed White
> >
>
> I wasn't referring to access to TSBs......Federal law makes the access to
> TSBs mandatory.
>
> TSBs tell you WHAT is wrong, but I was referring to the information that
> tells you HOW to fix it that is being held back by manufacturers.

I disagree. Both Ford and GM TSBs fall into two types - 1)
the informational variety, and 2) problem description and
repair procedures. The second type definitely include
specific how to instruuctions.

> Two completely different things.......
>
> I am referring to acquiring repair information that is necessary to
> diagnose, repair, and adjust today's cars - not decade-old Hondas as listed
> under Honda's "FREE" service manuals on the link you provided.

As long as your are willing to pay, it is not hard to get
this sort of information. The Ford and GM subscrription
sites both sell access to shop manuals for new vehicles.
This includes access to the powetrain manuals which include
very detailed diagnostic procedures. The biggest problem is
that the factory procedures often reference test equipment
that is very expensive.

> Find me information on the diagnosis, repair and adjustment of the latest
> Honda fuel, ignition and emmissions control systems.....

Well Honda is a pain in the butt. but if you are willing to
pay, take a look at
https://www.serviceexpress.honda.com/rjanisis/logon.asp .

Regards,

Ed White

C. E. White > wrote in article
>...
>
>
>
> As long as your are willing to pay, it is not hard to get
> this sort of information.

If only it were that simple....

I would suggest you write to some of the professional-oriented publications
such as Motor Age and tell them that they don't have the problem that they
believe they have.

It has been a growing issue in the automotive service & repair aftermarket
for a number of years now.

Take ANY 2005 vehicle into an independent repair shop to have something as
simple as a "Check Engine" code diagnosed - if, and ONLY IF, your scan tool
manufacturer has been allowed access to the information necessary to
program that scan tool to work with the car in question - and, in the
course of diagnostic and/or service, you are very likely to run into a
situation where you need what OEMs have deemed to be "proprietary"
information - which is ONLY available to dealerships......

......but, then again, maybe the professional-oriented automotive
aftermarket service & repair trade publications such as Motor Age - which
has been around more than 50 years - really don't know what they're
talking about.....but YOU do!

Do them a favor and avail them of your vast knowledge which they all seem
to lack - since they, and many other professionals within the automotive
service and repair industry, believe that there truly IS a problem with
access to automotive repair information from OEMs.....and, I'm not just
talking about how many quarts of oil are needed for an oil change.


B.P.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E." >
Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: Online TSB's?


>
>
> C. E. White > wrote in article
> >...
>>
>>
>>
>> As long as your are willing to pay, it is not hard to get
>> this sort of information.
>
> If only it were that simple....
>
> I would suggest you write to some of the professional-oriented
> publications
> such as Motor Age and tell them that they don't have the problem that they
> believe they have.
>
> It has been a growing issue in the automotive service & repair aftermarket
> for a number of years now.
>
> Take ANY 2005 vehicle into an independent repair shop to have something as
> simple as a "Check Engine" code diagnosed - if, and ONLY IF, your scan
> tool
> manufacturer has been allowed access to the information necessary to
> program that scan tool to work with the car in question - and, in the
> course of diagnostic and/or service, you are very likely to run into a
> situation where you need what OEMs have deemed to be "proprietary"
> information - which is ONLY available to dealerships......
>
> .....but, then again, maybe the professional-oriented automotive
> aftermarket service & repair trade publications such as Motor Age - which
> has been around more than 50 years - really don't know what they're
> talking about.....but YOU do!
>
> Do them a favor and avail them of your vast knowledge which they all seem
> to lack - since they, and many other professionals within the automotive
> service and repair industry, believe that there truly IS a problem with
> access to automotive repair information from OEMs.....and, I'm not just
> talking about how many quarts of oil are needed for an oil change.


Wow, I didn't mean to elicit such a hostile response. I don't claim "vast
knowledge" but I am of the opinion that most manufacturer's do offer
detailed repair information to independent repair outlets (for a price). The
ability for mechanics to buy the information from the manufacturer's
directly, and the ability of companies/magazines like Motor to obtain the
information and resell it are two different issues. I can certainly
understand why vehicle manufacturers might want to prevent other companies
from profiting from their proprietary information. Motor and similar
information providers want the manufactures to give them the information, or
sell it to them at a nominal charge, so that they can turn around and resell
it at a substantial profit to garages. I believe that you can purchase the
information you need from the vehicle manufacturers (at least I can for my
Fords and Saturn). The problems with test equipment is a completely
different issue. The generic OBD-II scan tools can pull the EPA mandated
generic codes. These are useful in determining the source of a problem.
There are also more expensive scan tools that can retrieve the manufacturer
specific codes. I have one that works well with my older Fords (pre-2004)
but won't work at all with my newer vehicles (2003 and beyond) although I
can still pull the generic codes. Manufacturers spend a great deal of money
developing tools, test equipment, and diagnostic procedures. These are a
competitive advantage. Do you think it is reasonable for them to just give
it away? The EPA requires manufacturer's to provide certain diagnostic data
streams that can be access by certain standard equipment. If this is
insufficient to diagnosis problems, then the problem is with the EPA. I
particularly dislike the fact that the EPA allows a variety of systems to
co-exist which results in equipment becoming obsolete after only a couple of
years of use. Of course there are also codes for air bags, ABS systems, etc.
that require more specialized equipment that can vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer, year to year and even model to model. I suppose eventually we
will arrive at all vehicles having a data bus for all systems that can be
accessed by a single diagnostic computer (which will probably be
manufacturer specific). Is it your hope that all manufacturer's provide
information in a standard format so that standard test equipment retrieve
all diagnostic information? If so, who do you suggest set and enforce the
standards? How about when new technology is introduced? Will it be necessary
to shoe horn it's diagnostic procedures to fit an old standard?

I am really not sure what you are expecting. Do you want the vehicle
manufacturers to freely provide the diagnostic data to anyone who asks for
it? Or do you want them to give it to companies like Motor, so that they can
sell it at a profit to independent garages? I believe the information you
need to diagnosis most problems can be purchased from the vehicle
manufacturers. Whether or not you can actually make use of this information
without purchasing manufacturer specific equipment is another issue. Maybe
if you provide specific examples of the information you can't obtain I can
better understand your complaint. I am only familiar with certain vehicles
(recent Fords, Saturn Vues, some Chrysler products). If you could frame the
question in terms of say a 2003 Ford Expedition, chances are I can come up
with an answer. If you ask me about a 2005 BMW, well I know I won't have
that information.

Just to make my position clear - I am not a service professional. I have no
special inside industry information. I usually purchase the vehicle
manufacturer's shop manuals for my vehicles. I have some diagnostic
equipment (generic OBD-II scanner, older Ford STAR scanner, datalink to PC
connector and software - which is of limited use, compression tester, timing
light, you know old stuff). I certainly don't have the very expensive
manufacturer specific test equipment that you need to follow some of the
Ford and GM diagnostic procedures, but so far, I've never needed them
either. The last really serious problem I had to diagnosis was with a
Chrysler van. The Generic OBD-II codes indicated that the problem was a
random misfire on cylinder 6. It was my SO's van. Before I got involved she
had several independent shops and one dealer work on it. The independent
shops replaced plugs and plug wires (twice), reset the check engine light,
and declared the problem solved (twice). The dealer, even with all their
great equipment and inside knowledge couldn't diagnosis the problem
(although they also replaced the plugs and wires) and suggested that the
engine needed to be replaced. A few minutes with a compression tester
indicated the problem was low compression on cylinder 6 (due to a burned
valve). An old school sort of problem.

Ed