Genuine Shop Manuals Standard Equipment on All Cars

mike gray totally exxagerated:
>
> Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>

How about 8 Ford EECIV cars over the last ten years...ALL atleast 8 years
without a failure.

Meaning..I've never had one ECM fail. Plus I know of one case where I saw
first hand a repair shop replace a good one so he could charge for it.

--
- Yes, I'm a crusty old geezer curmudgeon.. deal with it! -

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, mike gray wrote:

> Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....

1) My 1971 Volvo 164's original computer is not faulty.
2) My 1989 Dodge pickup's original computer is not faulty.
3) My 1992 Dodge Spirit's original computer is not faulty.
4) My relative's 2000 Subaru's original computer is not faulty.
5) My relative's 1991 Plymouth Acclaim's original computer is not faulty.
6) My relative's 1991 Nissan Maxima's original computer is not faulty.
7) My relative's 1992 Toyota Camry's original computer is not faulty.
8) My 1985 Volvo 245's original computer wasn't faulty when sold in '03.

Shall we go on, or have I made my point?

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, mike gray wrote:

> Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....

1) My 1971 Volvo 164's original computer is not faulty.
2) My 1989 Dodge pickup's original computer is not faulty.
3) My 1992 Dodge Spirit's original computer is not faulty.
4) My relative's 2000 Subaru's original computer is not faulty.
5) My relative's 1991 Plymouth Acclaim's original computer is not faulty.
6) My relative's 1991 Nissan Maxima's original computer is not faulty.
7) My relative's 1992 Toyota Camry's original computer is not faulty.
8) My 1985 Volvo 245's original computer wasn't faulty when sold in '03.

Shall we go on, or have I made my point?

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> mike gray wrote:
>> >
>> > Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>
> It's funny how this myth lingers on.

Just like the myth that the earth is a globe.

Just like the myth that operating systems can crash.

What percentage of recalls are for computer problems?

And how old is the computer on which you wrote yer reply?

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> mike gray wrote:
>> >
>> > Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>
> It's funny how this myth lingers on.

Just like the myth that the earth is a globe.

Just like the myth that operating systems can crash.

What percentage of recalls are for computer problems?

And how old is the computer on which you wrote yer reply?

"Ol' Duffer" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > It now costs the big three exactly a buck fifty to supply a genuine shop
> > manual for each and every car and truck they sell.
> >
> > That's what two CD-ROMs would cost them. One CD for shop procedures.
One
> > CD for parts catalogue. Those CD-ROMs should be sandwiched in the
owner's
> > manual.
> >
> > Do-it-yourselfers need them and so do old ladies. Why old ladies?
Simple.
> > When she breaks down someplace out of town, those discs will come in
handy
> > for the independent repair shop and his NAPA supplier.
>
> Reality: Little old ladies throw their owner's manauls away.

My great grandma didn't. When I got my '68 two years ago it still had the
original owners manual in the glovebox. When she gave me the title it was in
the original paper folder "NEW CAR PAPERS" thingy Ford used to give out with
new car. I have the original sales documents, a repair slip of something
that was repaired under warranty, an extra manual, and even the little round
key thingies with the key numbers on them so new keys could be cut if the
originals were lost.

Cory

"Ol' Duffer" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > It now costs the big three exactly a buck fifty to supply a genuine shop
> > manual for each and every car and truck they sell.
> >
> > That's what two CD-ROMs would cost them. One CD for shop procedures.
One
> > CD for parts catalogue. Those CD-ROMs should be sandwiched in the
owner's
> > manual.
> >
> > Do-it-yourselfers need them and so do old ladies. Why old ladies?
Simple.
> > When she breaks down someplace out of town, those discs will come in
handy
> > for the independent repair shop and his NAPA supplier.
>
> Reality: Little old ladies throw their owner's manauls away.

My great grandma didn't. When I got my '68 two years ago it still had the
original owners manual in the glovebox. When she gave me the title it was in
the original paper folder "NEW CAR PAPERS" thingy Ford used to give out with
new car. I have the original sales documents, a repair slip of something
that was repaired under warranty, an extra manual, and even the little round
key thingies with the key numbers on them so new keys could be cut if the
originals were lost.

Cory

Backyard Mechanic wrote:

> mike gray totally exxagerated:
>
>>Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>>
>
>
> How about 8 Ford EECIV cars over the last ten years...ALL atleast 8 years
> without a failure.
>
> Meaning..I've never had one ECM fail. Plus I know of one case where I saw
> first hand a repair shop replace a good one so he could charge for it.
>

Exactly. ECMs very rarely fail, even the early ones like "Lean Burn"
Chryslers from the 70s and HT4100 Cadillacs from the 80s. They're
usually replaced because someone can't figure out what's REALLY wrong
and blames that "stupid black box" that they can't understand. Or
because someone fries the ECM doing improper diagnostics. Its usually a
sensor, actuator, or wiring problem at the root of most "ECM" problems.

Backyard Mechanic wrote:

> mike gray totally exxagerated:
>
>>Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>>
>
>
> How about 8 Ford EECIV cars over the last ten years...ALL atleast 8 years
> without a failure.
>
> Meaning..I've never had one ECM fail. Plus I know of one case where I saw
> first hand a repair shop replace a good one so he could charge for it.
>

Exactly. ECMs very rarely fail, even the early ones like "Lean Burn"
Chryslers from the 70s and HT4100 Cadillacs from the 80s. They're
usually replaced because someone can't figure out what's REALLY wrong
and blames that "stupid black box" that they can't understand. Or
because someone fries the ECM doing improper diagnostics. Its usually a
sensor, actuator, or wiring problem at the root of most "ECM" problems.

mike gray > writes:

> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> >> mike gray wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
> > It's funny how this myth lingers on.
>
> Just like the myth that the earth is a globe.

If I were in a pedantic mood, I'd point out it's not. Very close,
though.

> Just like the myth that operating systems can crash.

> What percentage of recalls are for computer problems?

Dunno -- but I sure hear of a lot more for mechanical problems.

> And how old is the computer on which you wrote yer reply?

I'd have to check -- but it's a 700 MHz Athlon, and the chip had just
come out when I bought it. Though this is about as relevant as
everything else you wrote except the question about percentage of
recalls.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer