Wheels falling off RX-7 redux

pws > wrote:

>Did you get a chance to look at the car close-up?

Yes. It was sitting there for quite some time. People first had
to figure out how to get a jack under a car that is lying flat
on the ground with its bottom. Then put the oem wheels and
nuts back on.

I also screwed back on one of the nonOEM lug nuts. They screwed on
easily by hand but did not feel right.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

pltrgyst > wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:51:07 GMT, (Leon van
>Dommelen) wrote:
>
>>Suggestions that the problem was that the lug nuts were not torqued
>>down do not require any comment for any thinking person. Even if
>>they were not even finger tight, they could not all vibrate off at the
>>exact same time.
>
>They didn't have to "vibrate off at the exact same time." Only the last one or
>two on each wheel had to vibrate/shear/break off under maximum stress in the
>same turn-in.
..
>That would be immediately obvious to anyone who hasn't been permanently blinded
>by ugly white paint. 8

I guess there is nothing unreasonable to assume that the already vibrated-off
nuts were rolling around on the rim for the 100 ft the car drove without
falling off, and that each wheel's got down to its last one or two nuts all
at the same time, so that they could all vibrate/shear off at the same time.

>-- Larry ('95 R -- black, of course...)

Of course. With a Miata that slow, the brain atrophies from never having
to think quick.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:42:06 GMT, (Leon van
Dommelen) wrote:

>I guess there is nothing unreasonable to assume that the already vibrated-off
>nuts were rolling around on the rim for the 100 ft the car drove without
>falling off, and that each wheel's got down to its last one or two nuts all
>at the same time, so that they could all vibrate/shear off at the same time.

Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels
all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2.
at least three of those wheels completely separated from the car at essentially
the same time, so either the last lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared
simultaneously.

If you've got a way around those points, please let us know.

-- Larry

Leon van Dommelen wrote:

> Yes. It was sitting there for quite some time. People first had
> to figure out how to get a jack under a car that is lying flat
> on the ground with its bottom. Then put the oem wheels and
> nuts back on.

Buncha wimps. The car only weighs about 2700 pounds, and there were lots
of people there. They should have just carried it onto the jack stands.
You could probably have handled one end by yourself... :-)

> I also screwed back on one of the nonOEM lug nuts. They screwed on
> easily by hand but did not feel right.
>
> Leon

I have always been very careful with lug nuts, making sure that they are
the correct size, tightened correctly, etc. It just seems really
important that a wheel does not come off while driving. It hasn't
happened yet.

If I am ever guilty of either not screwing down the lug nuts down far
enough to engage correctly, or using the wrong size ones resulting in
the wheels falling off, it will be the last time I ever work on any car.

Pat

pltrgyst wrote:

> Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels
> all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2.
> at least three of those wheels completely separated from the car at essentially
> the same time, so either the last lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared
> simultaneously.
>
> If you've got a way around those points, please let us know.
>
> -- Larry

Sorry to step in Leon, but I have one.

There is no "either" here. The lug nuts came off because they failed to
properly engage the bolt threads, while the lug bolts remained intact
with threads that could still be used afterwards with the proper lug nuts.

Leon saw this in person, he even personally inspected with the car. I am
going with his assessment on this one.

Pat

pws > wrote:

>pltrgyst wrote:
>
>> Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels
>> all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2.
>> at least three of those wheels completely separated from the car at essentially
>> the same time, so either the last lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared
>> simultaneously.
>>
>> If you've got a way around those points, please let us know.
>>
>> -- Larry
>
>Sorry to step in Leon, but I have one.
>
>There is no "either" here. The lug nuts came off because they failed to
>properly engage the bolt threads, while the lug bolts remained intact
>with threads that could still be used afterwards with the proper lug nuts.

Absolutely. A correct-size lug nut screwed on only partially can still
hold a decent load but will eventually fall off. In that case there are
"last" lug-nuts, the one or two remaining ones when the others have
vibrated off, that may give plastically.

Here we have the situation that all of them popped off at the same time
right from their original fully screwed-on state, by skimming over the tops
of the stud threads, rather than shearing the threads significantly,
let alone the studs.

Leon

>Leon saw this in person, he even personally inspected with the car. I am
>going with his assessment on this one.
>
>Pat
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

pws > wrote:

>Leon van Dommelen wrote:
>
>> Yes. It was sitting there for quite some time. People first had
>> to figure out how to get a jack under a car that is lying flat
>> on the ground with its bottom. Then put the oem wheels and
>> nuts back on.
>
>Buncha wimps. The car only weighs about 2700 pounds, and there were lots
>of people there. They should have just carried it onto the jack stands.
>You could probably have handled one end by yourself... :-)
>
>> I also screwed back on one of the nonOEM lug nuts. They screwed on
>> easily by hand but did not feel right.
>>
>> Leon
>
>I have always been very careful with lug nuts, making sure that they are
>the correct size, tightened correctly, etc. It just seems really
>important that a wheel does not come off while driving. It hasn't
>happened yet.
>
>If I am ever guilty of either not screwing down the lug nuts down far
>enough to engage correctly, or using the wrong size ones resulting in
>the wheels falling off, it will be the last time I ever work on any car.

We had a neighbor who had a wheel fall off on the Interstate in Holland;
it has stuck in my memory. Since I am as forgetful as anybody, I make
a habit of after changing wheels, to go once more around all corners
to ensure they have been torqued down to spec.

It is not that I don't trust myself, just that I have so much evidence
to the contrary.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

Leon van Dommelen wrote:

> We had a neighbor who had a wheel fall off on the Interstate in Holland;
> it has stuck in my memory. Since I am as forgetful as anybody, I make
> a habit of after changing wheels, to go once more around all corners
> to ensure they have been torqued down to spec.
>
> It is not that I don't trust myself, just that I have so much evidence
> to the contrary.
>
> Leon

This brings to mind the lady who was selling five 280ZX's in various
states of repair. I considered purchasing them to part out and decided
against it.

Anyway, the one car that would start had lost a front wheel at speed
after vibrating the lug nuts off, and she said that the lug nuts on
every other wheel were loose with some missing.
She came to the conclusion that a thief had loosened them all and then
been scared off before removing the wheels. (yeah, huge demand there for
a set of scuffed-up 1983 280ZX wheels)

About this time she also mentioned that the cars belonged to both her
and her ex-husband, and that they were going to split the money as part
of the divorce agreement.
I asked if the car that the wheel fell off of was her daily driver
before the accident, and she said yes.

I just shook my head sadly as I left. There is such a thing as being too
cynical, and also such a thing as being completely naive.

I am pretty sure that I know who loosened her lug nuts.....

Pat

Pat,

......I'm fixin' ..... is "Texan" and has no resemblance to English.
Using "Texan" is ok, but not improper English. :-) (Go to bed Pat ! )
:-)

Bruce Bing '03 LS

PS: What the hell are you still doing in Texas ? I thought you were
going Northwest.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:35:16 -0500, pws > wrote:

>pltrgyst wrote:
>
>> Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels
>> all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2.
>> at least three of those wheels completely separated from the car at essentially
>> the same time, so either the last lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared
>> simultaneously.
>>
>> If you've got a way around those points, please let us know.
>>
>> -- Larry
>
>Sorry to step in Leon, but I have one.
>
>There is no "either" here. The lug nuts came off because they failed to
>properly engage the bolt threads, while the lug bolts remained intact
>with threads that could still be used afterwards with the proper lug nuts.
>
>Leon saw this in person, he even personally inspected with the car. I am
>going with his assessment on this one.

Ummm, no you don't. Nothing you or Leon have said contradicts anything I've
said. I have not asserted any reason why the lug nuts came off, just that they
did.

-- Larry