RWD vs. FWD in snow and ice

This should start another argum . . . Oops! I mean "promote a full and
frank exchange of views."

From our morning paper:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml

Note especially:

"First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel,
all-wheel and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge. All we can hope is that
you don't bounce off us as you pirouette into the median. My advice is
to call in sick and leave that automotive relic in the garage until the
sun comes out in April. Or drive to work in reverse."

Perce

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

> This should start another argum . . . Oops! I mean "promote a full and
> frank exchange of views."
>
> From our morning paper:
>
> http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml
>
>
> Note especially:
>
> "First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
> GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel,
> all-wheel and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
> fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge. All we can hope is that
> you don't bounce off us as you pirouette into the median. My advice is
> to call in sick and leave that automotive relic in the garage until the
> sun comes out in April. Or drive to work in reverse."
>
> Perce

Damn - that article sounds like it could have been written by someone
here!! Maybe not the side of the argument, but the "writing style".

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

How soon we forget I remember a time that is all there was rear wheel drive
that is. There seemed to be no difficulty in the winter you put chains on
the cars or studded tires or had your winter set and you just went. May be
it is the bone head drivers not the vehicles that is the problem.

I watched a guy this morning in his 05 mustang just spin and spin and spin
trying to get out of his 50 foot driveway and it was only a 3 degree slope.
Then he gave me a look why don't I help? Well, it was free entertainment
and I am easily amused. Now is it the cars fault or the bone head behind
the wheel, would it have been prudent to salt and sand the driveway instead
of burning rubber?

So I ask how is it the fault of the auto it has no consciousness, it does
not operate with free will, it needs a bone head operator to hose things up
and by your own admission you must be a bone head also.

HarryS


"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> This should start another argum . . . Oops! I mean "promote a full and
> frank exchange of views."
>
> From our morning paper:
>
> http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml
>
> Note especially:
>
> "First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
> GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel, all-wheel
> and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
> fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge. All we can hope is that
> you don't bounce off us as you pirouette into the median. My advice is to
> call in sick and leave that automotive relic in the garage until the sun
> comes out in April. Or drive to work in reverse."
>
> Perce

How soon we forget I remember a time that is all there was rear wheel drive
that is. There seemed to be no difficulty in the winter you put chains on
the cars or studded tires or had your winter set and you just went. May be
it is the bone head drivers not the vehicles that is the problem.

I watched a guy this morning in his 05 mustang just spin and spin and spin
trying to get out of his 50 foot driveway and it was only a 3 degree slope.
Then he gave me a look why don't I help? Well, it was free entertainment
and I am easily amused. Now is it the cars fault or the bone head behind
the wheel, would it have been prudent to salt and sand the driveway instead
of burning rubber?

So I ask how is it the fault of the auto it has no consciousness, it does
not operate with free will, it needs a bone head operator to hose things up
and by your own admission you must be a bone head also.

HarryS

"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> This should start another argum . . . Oops! I mean "promote a full and
> frank exchange of views."
>
> From our morning paper:
>
> http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml
>
> Note especially:
>
> "First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
> GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel, all-wheel
> and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
> fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge. All we can hope is that
> you don't bounce off us as you pirouette into the median. My advice is to
> call in sick and leave that automotive relic in the garage until the sun
> comes out in April. Or drive to work in reverse."
>
> Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> This should start another argum . . . Oops! I mean "promote a full and
> frank exchange of views."
>
> From our morning paper:
>
>
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml
>
> Note especially:
>
> "First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
> GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel,
> all-wheel and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
> fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge. All we can hope is that
> you don't bounce off us as you pirouette into the median. My advice is
> to call in sick and leave that automotive relic in the garage until the
> sun comes out in April. Or drive to work in reverse."

People who can't be bothered to buy proper WINTER tires for ice & snow
should stay home. FWD or RWD, it doesn't matter.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

> From our morning paper:
>
> http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml

> "First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
> GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel,
> all-wheel and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
> fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge.

Blah, blah, blahbitty blah blah.

A well-implemented RWD car is better than a poorly-implemented FWD car,
and there are plenty of both types.

A car with proper winter tires is better than a car with "all season"
tires in treacherous winter conditions, whether the front or rear wheels
be driven.

A car driven thoughtfully, attentively and skillfully is better than a car
lackadaisically aimed by a clueless, ignorant, self-distracted idiot

And that's really the end of the argument. Debating RWD vs. FWD misses
the point entirely.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

> This should start another argum . . . Oops! I mean "promote a full and
> frank exchange of views."
>
> From our morning paper:
>
> http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml
>
>
> Note especially:
>
> "First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
> GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel,
> all-wheel and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
> fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge. All we can hope is that
> you don't bounce off us as you pirouette into the median. My advice is
> to call in sick and leave that automotive relic in the garage until the
> sun comes out in April. Or drive to work in reverse."
>
> Perce


Bull****. If I can drive a Porsche 944 with summer tires (not that I
recommend that, mind you - I thought that I was going to have a Golf
winter beater by now) why can't anyone else around here seem to navigate
their way through the snow with their FWD and AWD vehicles? Driver
ability and familiarity with snow driving counts for a lot.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

In late 1999 my dailer driver changed from an early 70's B body with a 318
(which I had been driving for the previous 6 years) to a 2000 300M.

In the 5.5 winters that I've been driving the 300, there have been 3 or 4
winters where several times the snowfall was such that I'm pretty sure I would
have been stuck in a RWD car equipped with the best snow tires. (chains are
unheard of here, and studs were made illegal more than 20 years ago).

For the past 3.5 winters I've put snow tires on the 300 (on 16" plain steel
wheels). I think the snow tires, combined with FWD, make the difference
between being able to drive out of my driveway and get to the nearest plowed
feeder or arterial road after a foot of snow falls the previous night. This
exact situation has happened several times this winter, and I'm making my own
tracks (not driving in a set of tracks created by a few 4x4's already).

I'm torn when it comes to whether or not I'd want my next daily driver to be a
V-8 RWD. I don't want the extra cost, dead weight, and complexity of AWD when
I know I'd only use for the very very very few miles in the winter. As most of
my miles are urban (stop-light to stop-light) a RWD V-8 really wouldn't get the
sort of work-out it's capable of. The 3.5l 250 hp V-6 in the 300 generally
gets me up to speed fast enough given congested urban driving.

If I weren't faced with the practically 100% certainty of several heavy snow
dumps each year (and most of my driving continued to be on pretty flat
terrain), then going to RWD for my next car would be a much easier decision to
make (I really would rather drive RWD).

So when the snow falls and the plows haven't gotten to your neighborhood yet,
my experience is that FWD (with ordinary "all-season" tires) is either equal
to, or marginally better than, RWD with good snows.

However, FWD with good snows (Alpin or Blizzak, even 2 to 3 years old) will get
you through deep snow in a totally amazing way that will leave RWD's hopelessly
stuck.

050129 1759 - Daniel J. Stern posted:

> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
>
>> From our morning paper:
>>
>> http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...9737092951.xml
>
>> "First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle --
>> GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel,
>> all-wheel and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a
>> fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge.
>
> Blah, blah, blahbitty blah blah.
>
> A well-implemented RWD car is better than a poorly-implemented FWD car,
> and there are plenty of both types.
>
> A car with proper winter tires is better than a car with "all season"
> tires in treacherous winter conditions, whether the front or rear wheels
> be driven.
>
> A car driven thoughtfully, attentively and skillfully is better than a car
> lackadaisically aimed by a clueless, ignorant, self-distracted idiot
>
> And that's really the end of the argument. Debating RWD vs. FWD misses
> the point entirely.

And talk about "a car lackadaisically aimed by a clueless, ignorant,
self-distracted idiot", I was watching a news report about a police car that
was involved in an accident. There were several witnesses talking with the
news reporter who explained that the patrol car proceeded cautiously to each
light with his siren and lights on, and at the scene, he slowed his car and
then moved it through the intersection against the red light. A car
approaching the intersection slammed into him, broadsiding the patrol car
and sending both officers to the hospital. One of the witnesses noted that
the offending driver was using a cellphone at the time. His ass is toast.
This may just lead to some legislation here in Michigan outlawing the use of
cellphones while driving a car.

050129 1824 - MoPar Man posted:

> In late 1999 my dailer driver changed from an early 70's B body with a 318
> (which I had been driving for the previous 6 years) to a 2000 300M.
>
> In the 5.5 winters that I've been driving the 300, there have been 3 or 4
> winters where several times the snowfall was such that I'm pretty sure I would
> have been stuck in a RWD car equipped with the best snow tires. (chains are
> unheard of here, and studs were made illegal more than 20 years ago).
>

Recalling back a few years -- actually around 1944 -- 3 or 4 of us kids went
down the street a block or two after a snowfall of around 4 or 5 inches and
when it was dark out we hid behind the bushes at a street intersection that
had an incline and waited for a car to come up the hill. It was a T
intersection and the car had to go either left or right without stopping --
regardless of the stop sign -- or he would get stuck there. When the car
would slow down, 2 of us would sneak out from behind the bushes after he
went by and would get behind the car and hold him back so he would get stuck
in the snow. Then we would appear out of nowhere and say we would help him
up around the corner for 25¢ -- hey, that was pretty big money back in those
days. He would hand us a coin out of the window and we would push him up
around the corner. We did this with several cars -- I recall one driver
saying that it was robbery considering that we had held him back in the
first place, but he paid anyway. It was really a beautiful winter night --
not really too cold out, and we were doing quite well, but I noticed down
the street somebody was working in their garage. The door was open and a
bright light was on and he was banging away on something. While we were
hiding in the bushes, a Ford Model A pickup backed out of that garage and
into the street. It came up to the intersection where we were and I and
another crept out behind him and grabbed onto the bumper to hold him back.
He dragged our ass up around that corner without letup, laughing all the
while. Finally we let go and he continued on his way. I looked down at the
snow and saw a deep, knobby tire tread. I had never seen anything like this
before, but it was my first introduction to a knobby snow tire tread. He
must have been watching us from his garage and decided to give his new snow
tires the acid test.