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Civic Hybrid -- gas/electric usage



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 24th 05, 02:49 AM
jim beam
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>
>>I get 46 overall, with 50+ at 70mph on the freeway.
>>2003 CVT. 50,000 miles.

>
>
> Wow.
>
> A buddy of mine, on a complete lark, went and bought a used Beetle
> diesel. 47K miles on it.
>
> His first full tank, in town, with the AC blowing hard, was 47mpg.
>
> I have yet to hear what his first highway drive did.


you know, this whole economy thing has really gotten me interested.
especially as you mention the diesel thing. on the one hand, diesel is
more thermodynamically efficient, so it's going to give better economy
anyway, but diesel fuel also doesn't offer the same degree of latitude
for, er, "variance" that gasoline does because it can become smoky, hard
to start, or worse, ruin injection equipment.

since that recent octane thread we had, i've been doing a little more
reading around on the subject of calorific content for gasoline, and
there really is a /huge/ reluctance by anyone [in the california market
at least] to quote figures for the energy content of their fuel. i find
this interesting because all other consumer goods are subject to
performance standards, not least of which is natural gas which is sold
by the therm, not the cubic foot. even gasoline is subject to rigorous
weights & measures inspection with state inspectors certifying pump
calibration at regular intervals. but, think about it, if you're
selling energy not by actual calories [therms in the case of natural
gas] but by volume [gallons], the relevance of the volume measurement is
somewhat questionable if the energy content is variable.

so, what do we have here?
http://api-ec.api.org/about/index.cf...02001000000000

and to repeat the most interesting paragraph in the whole page:
"Conventional gasolines also can contain oxygenates. They are added to
help meet octane number specifications and/or to extend the product volume."

extending product volume??? if using ethanol "volume extender", it has
about half the calorific content of gasoline meaning you need to burn
/more/ gas gallons to travel the same journey.

hopefully, the cost impact of this is obvious, but in case it's not,
consider this. imagine you're flying to tokyo from san francisco,
[about 1000 miles] against the jet-stream all the way. the pilot &
engineer carefully calculate their fuel requirement for the journey
based on their payload, known winds, distance, etc. imagine now that
they were buying fuel in gallons and that unknown to them, the energy
content of their fuel had been reduced by 10%. that could leave them
stranded in the ocean by nearly 100 miles. so, while i don't know this
for fact, you have to assume that either there is a base minimum energy
content for aviation fuel, /or/ that the energy content is known at the
time fuel calcs are done.

if there is a base energy content for aviation fuel, why not for cars?
it affects the amount of money i spend at the pump each week. if the
energy content is known, why not for cars? it affects the amount of
money i spend at the pump each week!!!

i'm now /definitely/ interested in this whole oxygenation thing. fwiu,
oxygenates are irrelevant for modern closed loop injection systems, so
could it be that the emphasis on oxygenates are actually the result of
the opportunity to use "volume extenders"???

>
> I'd think a Toyota Corolla could come close enough to that 46 overall
> number, and that without having any black magic software/hardware that
> no one but the dealer can fix.
>


Ads
  #12  
Old July 24th 05, 04:32 AM
Dave
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In article >, jim beam > wrote:

>since that recent octane thread we had, i've been doing a little more
>reading around on the subject of calorific content for gasoline, and
>there really is a /huge/ reluctance by anyone [in the california market
>at least] to quote figures for the energy content of their fuel.


It is true they vary. Diesel is denser than gasoline, and thus
has about 12-13% higher energy content (and about 12-14% more GHG
production) per gallon. Thus that part of the MPG benefit is not
about efficiency, just energy density.

Ethanol has about 2/3 the volumetric energy content of gasoline.

If one uses as much as 10% ethanol, I calculate roughly a 4%
decrease in energy content overall. That's just an approximation.
I'm not sure of the exact value. And I suppose most reformulated
or oxygenated gasoline uses less, so less deviation from "pure"
gasoline (which varies in itself). So yeah, there are energy
density differences, but not huge.
  #13  
Old July 24th 05, 06:58 AM
SoCalMike
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muzz wrote:
> On 21 Jul 2005 10:06:57 -0700, "Jeff" > wrote:
>
> Good night! I've had my 2004 now for 18 months and am getting
> 32 mpg. Dealer says that's about the expected mpg - excuse me?
> I think I should get at least 40 if they advertise 48. Had the recall
> computer update done last week, but they say not to expect any
> better -


a) what are your driving habits like?
b) did you do any research on the hybrids before buying?
  #14  
Old July 24th 05, 07:04 AM
SoCalMike
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jim beam wrote:
> you know, this whole economy thing has really gotten me interested.


eh. kinda bores me. seeing all these people shelling out beaucoup bucks
on a new toy trying to justify it by saying itll save a few cents on
gas, and then getting all sentida when it doesnt work out as planned.

wanna save money? buy any small honda or toyota. new or used. wanna be a
little different? get some form of VW diesel, new or used. IIRC them
advertising over 500 miles on a tank, but diesel might take a little
effort to find. and then you have to deal with the VW quirks, like loose
engine tolerances and oil burning.
  #15  
Old July 24th 05, 07:08 AM
SoCalMike
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> jim beam > wrote:
>
>
>>>A buddy of mine, on a complete lark, went and bought a used Beetle
>>>diesel. 47K miles on it.
>>>
>>>His first full tank, in town, with the AC blowing hard, was 47mpg.
>>>
>>>I have yet to hear what his first highway drive did.

>>
>>you know, this whole economy thing has really gotten me interested.

>
>
> That's the goal: get people thinking and educated.
>
> BTW, my buddy tells me that he gets 52+ mpg with that Beetle on all
> highway miles.
>
> I'd *much* rather have a diesel than a hybrid, if mpg is the same and
> the fuel is roughly the same cost.
>


im glad people are buying hybrids, but i think too many get their hopes
up too high. hearing people complain that they arent getting 50mpg, but
only 40 or whatever is as annoying as the guy at work bitching that it
took $80 to fill his suburban.
  #17  
Old July 24th 05, 04:17 PM
jim beam
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> jim beam > wrote:
>
>
>>>A buddy of mine, on a complete lark, went and bought a used Beetle
>>>diesel. 47K miles on it.
>>>
>>>His first full tank, in town, with the AC blowing hard, was 47mpg.
>>>
>>>I have yet to hear what his first highway drive did.

>>
>>you know, this whole economy thing has really gotten me interested.

>
>
> That's the goal: get people thinking and educated.
>
> BTW, my buddy tells me that he gets 52+ mpg with that Beetle on all
> highway miles.
>
> I'd *much* rather have a diesel than a hybrid, if mpg is the same and
> the fuel is roughly the same cost.
>

i used to do a lot of maintenance work on diesels. in many respects,
they're great, especially for towing. and interesting to drive too - a
huge contrast to a honda where it's all about the revs.

but i /hate/ diesel fuel. i hate it on my hands. i hate it on my
clothes. i especially hate it if i get it on my shoes because it stinks
& you can't usually throw them in the washing machine like practically
everything else.

i'd also regularly see cracked cylinder heads. maybe the newer direct
injections are less problematic, but the older indirect injection
engines would always crack around the pre-combustion chamber. there's
massive thermal cycling & very high pressures in that location so it's
/going/ to happen. depending on the vehicle, many would last well over
100k miles, but even so, cracked heads were pretty much inevitable and
/very/ expensive to replace. old diesel indirects with cast iron heads
often last much better, but they're not immune by any means and i can't
imagine they're used much any more because of weight & emissions.

  #18  
Old July 25th 05, 01:52 PM
Jeff
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"im glad people are buying hybrids, but i think too many get their
hopes
up too high. hearing people complain that they arent getting 50mpg, but

only 40 or whatever is as annoying as the guy at work bitching that it
took $80 to fill his suburbanan."

If Honda is advertising it at 47/48 mpg, I'd like to know if something
can be tweaked to reach that mark. Should I just sit back and say
"well, 40 isn't too bad"? Hell no. If I'm going to pay the extra few
grand to get the Hybrid over the standard Civic, I want a return on my
investment.

And hearing someone complain about 40 mpg is not even in the same
ballpark as listening to a suburban or better yet, a Hummer owner,
complain about their gas bill. Apples and oranges.

  #20  
Old July 25th 05, 11:38 PM
Dave
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In article . com>, "Jeff" > wrote:

>If Honda is advertising it at 47/48 mpg, I'd like to know if something
>can be tweaked to reach that mark. Should I just sit back and say
>"well, 40 isn't too bad"? Hell no. If I'm going to pay the extra few
>grand to get the Hybrid over the standard Civic, I want a return on my
>investment.


There is no guarantee that you will get the 47/48. Those numbers
are based on standardized tests that won't necessarily be
reflective of how you drive, nor where you drive.

Having said that, it does seem that hybrids miss their EPA sticker
MPG by a higher pct than do other vehicles. And I can certainly
see why the buyer of such a car might be miffed. However, there
are reasons why a hybrid might miss by mo the hybrid power
management strategy is more highly dependent on the drive schedule
it is tweaked for than the normal transmission/vehicle strategy in
a conventional vehicle. A high mpg vehicle will be impacted more
by turning on A/C, or opening windows, or any similar since it
consumed so little fuel otherwise.

Last, consider how much extra fuel is consumed if you get "only"
40 mpg vs 48. Over 12,000 mi/yr, it would consume 50 gallons
more. A gallon/week. That's equivalent to a 24 MPG rated vehicle
only delivering 22.

I think we would benefit from the EPA's certification cycle more
closely resembing "typical" (whatever that is) driving. So that
hybrids would more likely be tweaked for, and approach, real world
MPG. So I hear your lament. But I also can see why some would
not be terribly concerned about the differences between 48
(rated) and 40 (real) mpg.
 




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