GTP isn't worth the hassle

Have you made a player and run the graphics config first?


"marc fredo via GamesKB.com" > wrote in message
. ..
>I have tried hard for figure this mod out. Every step was taken not only
> by me, but my business tech director as well. When we attempt the
> startup,
> IT REBOOTS my ENTIRE system... Can anyone formulate a step by step to make
> it easy to understand...Maybe someone like redline??? Why go through the
> trouble to put something this exciting together, and then do such a poor
> job of helping us enjoy it?
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.gameskb.com

Yes, David, but Jan is right - if you're sensitive enuf, you can "feel" the
stockcar underpinnings even thru the extensive modifications made to N2003's
physics engine for GTP.

Two big issues obtain here....

1. As Jan sez, despite the fact that both stockcars and late-80s Prototypes
were using radials, the latter had extremely low sidewalls (lower even than
today's F1s), so the steering response was almost instantaneous. Stockcars,
then and now, are laterally much "softer" than low-profile tires - there's a
perceptable lag (occasioned by the "hysteresis" in the rubber) between the
time the wheel rim turns and the time the tire tread follows. Even so, Dave
Kaemmer said he had to stop driving GPL after Papy had moved on to the next
gen NASCAR Racing because GPL's tire model was so bad.

2. The rest of N2003's physics model is built around a front-engined chassis
designed to turn left on four equally-sized tires and a "live" (beam) rear
axle. IOW, worlds away from the chassis of a rear-engined car with 4-wheel
indy suspension for roadies, wings & tunnels, and huge differences between
the F & R tire sizes.

Plus, of course, anomalies like N2003's RF tire bug. And omissions like
fast & slow shock values, brake press. settings, packers/buffers, diff ramp
angles, alt. tire treads and compounds, etc.


"David G Fisher" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jan Verschueren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Steve Smith" wrote...
> > > No, Jan, it isn't perfect. No matter how fearsome the
> > > wolf's clothing looks, you can still occasionally see
> > > sheep's feet sticking out from under it.
> >
> > None of them are, Steve, it just a matter of how good the approximation
> is.
> >
> > > At the end of the day, tho, it's far and away the best mod ever done
> > > for N2003...or anything else except GTR.
> >
> > Among the non stock car related mods you mean, I'm sure.
> >
> > > Compared to GTR, GTP feels slightly cartoon-ish, over-
> > > simplified and un-subtle, but the cars drive great,
> > > there's a huge selection of appropriate tracks (altho
> > > not all tracks suitable for stock cars and trux are
> > > suitable for 200+ mph GT Prototypes),
> >
> > Obviously, but is there any point? -the way you're talking it will still
> > have the two basic problems which put me off the TA mod for life:
> >
> > 1) I will feel the chassis move over the tyres before the car will even
> > begin to turn in to the corners.
> >
> > 2) it will still be *way* quicker to simply kill the rear and deal with
> the
> > resulting mess by balancing throttle against brake hotlapper/Schumacher
> > style than to set up the car properly given the laughable
> > rideheights/springrates available.
> >
> > --> No thanks, I'll stick to GPL.
> >
> > > and the online play...and league features...are matchless.
> >
> > Which are also present in the series the game manages to represent more
or
> > less adequately: stock cars.
> >
> > Jan.
> > =---
>
> The GTP cars feel a lot, lot different than the Cup or TA cars.
>
>
> --
> David G Fisher
>
>

Bear in mind this is the same DGF that thinks GTR is a terrible sim. Go
figure...


"Steve Smith" > wrote in message
.. .
> Yes, David, but Jan is right - if you're sensitive enuf, you can "feel"
> the
> stockcar underpinnings even thru the extensive modifications made to
> N2003's
> physics engine for GTP.
>
> Two big issues obtain here....
>
> 1. As Jan sez, despite the fact that both stockcars and late-80s
> Prototypes
> were using radials, the latter had extremely low sidewalls (lower even
> than
> today's F1s), so the steering response was almost instantaneous.
> Stockcars,
> then and now, are laterally much "softer" than low-profile tires - there's
> a
> perceptable lag (occasioned by the "hysteresis" in the rubber) between the
> time the wheel rim turns and the time the tire tread follows. Even so,
> Dave
> Kaemmer said he had to stop driving GPL after Papy had moved on to the
> next
> gen NASCAR Racing because GPL's tire model was so bad.
>
> 2. The rest of N2003's physics model is built around a front-engined
> chassis
> designed to turn left on four equally-sized tires and a "live" (beam) rear
> axle. IOW, worlds away from the chassis of a rear-engined car with
> 4-wheel
> indy suspension for roadies, wings & tunnels, and huge differences between
> the F & R tire sizes.
>
> Plus, of course, anomalies like N2003's RF tire bug. And omissions like
> fast & slow shock values, brake press. settings, packers/buffers, diff
> ramp
> angles, alt. tire treads and compounds, etc.
>
>
> "David G Fisher" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jan Verschueren" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Steve Smith" wrote...
>> > > No, Jan, it isn't perfect. No matter how fearsome the
>> > > wolf's clothing looks, you can still occasionally see
>> > > sheep's feet sticking out from under it.
>> >
>> > None of them are, Steve, it just a matter of how good the approximation
>> is.
>> >
>> > > At the end of the day, tho, it's far and away the best mod ever done
>> > > for N2003...or anything else except GTR.
>> >
>> > Among the non stock car related mods you mean, I'm sure.
>> >
>> > > Compared to GTR, GTP feels slightly cartoon-ish, over-
>> > > simplified and un-subtle, but the cars drive great,
>> > > there's a huge selection of appropriate tracks (altho
>> > > not all tracks suitable for stock cars and trux are
>> > > suitable for 200+ mph GT Prototypes),
>> >
>> > Obviously, but is there any point? -the way you're talking it will
>> > still
>> > have the two basic problems which put me off the TA mod for life:
>> >
>> > 1) I will feel the chassis move over the tyres before the car will even
>> > begin to turn in to the corners.
>> >
>> > 2) it will still be *way* quicker to simply kill the rear and deal with
>> the
>> > resulting mess by balancing throttle against brake hotlapper/Schumacher
>> > style than to set up the car properly given the laughable
>> > rideheights/springrates available.
>> >
>> > --> No thanks, I'll stick to GPL.
>> >
>> > > and the online play...and league features...are matchless.
>> >
>> > Which are also present in the series the game manages to represent more
> or
>> > less adequately: stock cars.
>> >
>> > Jan.
>> > =---
>>
>> The GTP cars feel a lot, lot different than the Cup or TA cars.
>>
>>
>> --
>> David G Fisher
>>
>>
>
>

Ahhh... the old days of QEMM and editing .ini's. It seems so long ago!
*Sigh* Oh wait... lol
I used to have to go to all the friends and relatives houses to free up
memory for them so they could run their new games.
Glad that's over!
.... or is it? lol <%)


"Steve Simpson" > wrote in message
...
>
>>> I think Falcon 3 was the worst. IIRC something around 612k was needed.
>>> That was the original Falcon dance
>>
>> Aces over Europe was the one I had the most trouble with, that and Rail
>> Road Tycoon DL
>>
>> High memory area, Upper Memory Blocks, boot menus from hell
>
> Hehe...I loved it. I reckon I had the most kick-ass dos 6.22 boot menu
> ever
> devised.
>
>

Well, I've had my doubts abt. DGF in the past, but he seems to be coming
around lately. The meds must be working.

"Mitch_A" > wrote in message
. ..
> Bear in mind this is the same DGF that thinks GTR is a terrible sim. Go
> figure...
>
>
> "Steve Smith" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Yes, David, but Jan is right - if you're sensitive enuf, you can "feel"
> > the
> > stockcar underpinnings even thru the extensive modifications made to
> > N2003's
> > physics engine for GTP.
> >
> > Two big issues obtain here....
> >
> > 1. As Jan sez, despite the fact that both stockcars and late-80s
> > Prototypes
> > were using radials, the latter had extremely low sidewalls (lower even
> > than
> > today's F1s), so the steering response was almost instantaneous.
> > Stockcars,
> > then and now, are laterally much "softer" than low-profile tires -
there's
> > a
> > perceptable lag (occasioned by the "hysteresis" in the rubber) between
the
> > time the wheel rim turns and the time the tire tread follows. Even so,
> > Dave
> > Kaemmer said he had to stop driving GPL after Papy had moved on to the
> > next
> > gen NASCAR Racing because GPL's tire model was so bad.
> >
> > 2. The rest of N2003's physics model is built around a front-engined
> > chassis
> > designed to turn left on four equally-sized tires and a "live" (beam)
rear
> > axle. IOW, worlds away from the chassis of a rear-engined car with
> > 4-wheel
> > indy suspension for roadies, wings & tunnels, and huge differences
between
> > the F & R tire sizes.
> >
> > Plus, of course, anomalies like N2003's RF tire bug. And omissions like
> > fast & slow shock values, brake press. settings, packers/buffers, diff
> > ramp
> > angles, alt. tire treads and compounds, etc.
> >
> >
> > "David G Fisher" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Jan Verschueren" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > "Steve Smith" wrote...
> >> > > No, Jan, it isn't perfect. No matter how fearsome the
> >> > > wolf's clothing looks, you can still occasionally see
> >> > > sheep's feet sticking out from under it.
> >> >
> >> > None of them are, Steve, it just a matter of how good the
approximation
> >> is.
> >> >
> >> > > At the end of the day, tho, it's far and away the best mod ever
done
> >> > > for N2003...or anything else except GTR.
> >> >
> >> > Among the non stock car related mods you mean, I'm sure.
> >> >
> >> > > Compared to GTR, GTP feels slightly cartoon-ish, over-
> >> > > simplified and un-subtle, but the cars drive great,
> >> > > there's a huge selection of appropriate tracks (altho
> >> > > not all tracks suitable for stock cars and trux are
> >> > > suitable for 200+ mph GT Prototypes),
> >> >
> >> > Obviously, but is there any point? -the way you're talking it will
> >> > still
> >> > have the two basic problems which put me off the TA mod for life:
> >> >
> >> > 1) I will feel the chassis move over the tyres before the car will
even
> >> > begin to turn in to the corners.
> >> >
> >> > 2) it will still be *way* quicker to simply kill the rear and deal
with
> >> the
> >> > resulting mess by balancing throttle against brake
hotlapper/Schumacher
> >> > style than to set up the car properly given the laughable
> >> > rideheights/springrates available.
> >> >
> >> > --> No thanks, I'll stick to GPL.
> >> >
> >> > > and the online play...and league features...are matchless.
> >> >
> >> > Which are also present in the series the game manages to represent
more
> > or
> >> > less adequately: stock cars.
> >> >
> >> > Jan.
> >> > =---
> >>
> >> The GTP cars feel a lot, lot different than the Cup or TA cars.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> David G Fisher
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

I never said that GTR is a terrible sim. Silly. Because of RASCAR, I won't
say what I'd love to.

As for GTP, Jan hadn't even tried it yet when he made the post you replied
to, but was already drawing conclusions. It feels nothing like the Cup or TA
cars.

--
David G Fisher


"Steve Smith" > wrote in message
.. .
> Well, I've had my doubts abt. DGF in the past, but he seems to be coming
> around lately. The meds must be working.
>
> "Mitch_A" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Bear in mind this is the same DGF that thinks GTR is a terrible sim. Go
> > figure...
> >
> >
> > "Steve Smith" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Yes, David, but Jan is right - if you're sensitive enuf, you can
"feel"
> > > the
> > > stockcar underpinnings even thru the extensive modifications made to
> > > N2003's
> > > physics engine for GTP.
> > >
> > > Two big issues obtain here....
> > >
> > > 1. As Jan sez, despite the fact that both stockcars and late-80s
> > > Prototypes
> > > were using radials, the latter had extremely low sidewalls (lower even
> > > than
> > > today's F1s), so the steering response was almost instantaneous.
> > > Stockcars,
> > > then and now, are laterally much "softer" than low-profile tires -
> there's
> > > a
> > > perceptable lag (occasioned by the "hysteresis" in the rubber) between
> the
> > > time the wheel rim turns and the time the tire tread follows. Even
so,
> > > Dave
> > > Kaemmer said he had to stop driving GPL after Papy had moved on to the
> > > next
> > > gen NASCAR Racing because GPL's tire model was so bad.
> > >
> > > 2. The rest of N2003's physics model is built around a front-engined
> > > chassis
> > > designed to turn left on four equally-sized tires and a "live" (beam)
> rear
> > > axle. IOW, worlds away from the chassis of a rear-engined car with
> > > 4-wheel
> > > indy suspension for roadies, wings & tunnels, and huge differences
> between
> > > the F & R tire sizes.
> > >
> > > Plus, of course, anomalies like N2003's RF tire bug. And omissions
like
> > > fast & slow shock values, brake press. settings, packers/buffers, diff
> > > ramp
> > > angles, alt. tire treads and compounds, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > "David G Fisher" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>
> > >> "Jan Verschueren" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> > "Steve Smith" wrote...
> > >> > > No, Jan, it isn't perfect. No matter how fearsome the
> > >> > > wolf's clothing looks, you can still occasionally see
> > >> > > sheep's feet sticking out from under it.
> > >> >
> > >> > None of them are, Steve, it just a matter of how good the
> approximation
> > >> is.
> > >> >
> > >> > > At the end of the day, tho, it's far and away the best mod ever
> done
> > >> > > for N2003...or anything else except GTR.
> > >> >
> > >> > Among the non stock car related mods you mean, I'm sure.
> > >> >
> > >> > > Compared to GTR, GTP feels slightly cartoon-ish, over-
> > >> > > simplified and un-subtle, but the cars drive great,
> > >> > > there's a huge selection of appropriate tracks (altho
> > >> > > not all tracks suitable for stock cars and trux are
> > >> > > suitable for 200+ mph GT Prototypes),
> > >> >
> > >> > Obviously, but is there any point? -the way you're talking it will
> > >> > still
> > >> > have the two basic problems which put me off the TA mod for life:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1) I will feel the chassis move over the tyres before the car will
> even
> > >> > begin to turn in to the corners.
> > >> >
> > >> > 2) it will still be *way* quicker to simply kill the rear and deal
> with
> > >> the
> > >> > resulting mess by balancing throttle against brake
> hotlapper/Schumacher
> > >> > style than to set up the car properly given the laughable
> > >> > rideheights/springrates available.
> > >> >
> > >> > --> No thanks, I'll stick to GPL.
> > >> >
> > >> > > and the online play...and league features...are matchless.
> > >> >
> > >> > Which are also present in the series the game manages to represent
> more
> > > or
> > >> > less adequately: stock cars.
> > >> >
> > >> > Jan.
> > >> > =---
> > >>
> > >> The GTP cars feel a lot, lot different than the Cup or TA cars.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> David G Fisher
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:25:49 -0500, "David G Fisher" >
wrote:

>I never said that GTR is a terrible sim. Silly. Because of RASCAR, I won't
>say what I'd love to.
>
>As for GTP, Jan hadn't even tried it yet when he made the post you replied
>to, but was already drawing conclusions. It feels nothing like the Cup or TA
>cars.

I may be wrong, and you guys seem to understand these things better
than I, but the steering response seems pretty quick. The only time
I notice the stock car underpinnings is with the weight shifts-center
of gravity is certainly lower than in a Cup car, but I often still
find that
there is a "lag" when trying to get the weight to the side you need
it at.

John

Are we talking abt. quick for a sim or quick for a virtual stockcar? My
experience w. stockcars on roadies in almost nil, as is my experience w.
Prototypes, but there is a difference, and in GTP, you can feel it more in
the front end than the rear (in N2003 it's the opposite). I've driven N2003
on every type of road circuit and the chassis response seems pretty
accurate. I've also been involved w. some guys that ran GTPs on an oval
(sub-40 sec./+235 mph laps @ MIS) and they didn't feel...or should I say
"respond"?...much like what I'd expect from a real-world GTP, i.e., outside
the envelope.

"John DiFool" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:25:49 -0500, "David G Fisher" >
> wrote:
>
> >I never said that GTR is a terrible sim. Silly. Because of RASCAR, I
won't
> >say what I'd love to.
> >
> >As for GTP, Jan hadn't even tried it yet when he made the post you
replied
> >to, but was already drawing conclusions. It feels nothing like the Cup or
TA
> >cars.
>
> I may be wrong, and you guys seem to understand these things better
> than I, but the steering response seems pretty quick. The only time
> I notice the stock car underpinnings is with the weight shifts-center
> of gravity is certainly lower than in a Cup car, but I often still
> find that
> there is a "lag" when trying to get the weight to the side you need
> it at.
>
> John
>

"John DiFool" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:25:49 -0500, "David G Fisher" >
> wrote:
>
> >I never said that GTR is a terrible sim. Silly. Because of RASCAR, I
won't
> >say what I'd love to.
> >
> >As for GTP, Jan hadn't even tried it yet when he made the post you
replied
> >to, but was already drawing conclusions. It feels nothing like the Cup or
TA
> >cars.
>
> I may be wrong, and you guys seem to understand these things better
> than I, but the steering response seems pretty quick. The only time
> I notice the stock car underpinnings is with the weight shifts-center
> of gravity is certainly lower than in a Cup car, but I often still
> find that
> there is a "lag" when trying to get the weight to the side you need
> it at.
>
> John

Could be down to setup.

I love fast, quick, stiff suspensioned, precise handling cars (modern F1
basically). I usually don't like sloppy, soft suspensioned, loose handling,
imprecise cars so I'd probably be first in line to criticize this mod if it
had any of those traits. :-)

I can't think of another sports car sim/mod that we've ever had that's had
such quick, fast, and precise handling cars, so I guess I just don't see the
point in Jan or Steve's concerns about the mod's base.


--
David G Fisher

You are correct.

I don't have to pick my teeth up from off the floor after finishing a Cup
race

-Larry


"David G Fisher" > wrote in message
...
>
> The GTP cars feel a lot, lot different than the Cup or TA cars.
>
>
> --
> David G Fisher
>
>