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Is it just BMW that does not recommend tire rotation?



 
 
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  #31  
Old May 17th 05, 07:49 PM
Malt_Hound
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Steve wrote:
> Malt_Hound wrote:
>
>> Steve wrote:
>>
>>> Timothy J. Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article >,
>>>> zerouali > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tyre rotation seems to be a mainly American thing, no one else ever
>>>>> really mentions or uses it, as far as I've seen. Any particular
>>>>> reason for this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It all depends on what you're trying to maximize.
>>>
>>> If you're trying to extract the utomost performance from every tire,
>>> then don't rotate because once a wear pattern is established,
>>> switching it to a different corner of the car would result in a
>>> sub-optimal contact patch.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if you don't expect to push your car to its
>>> absolute lateral G limit all the time (as in the case of 99.9% of
>>> daily driven cars!) then rotating the tires and tolerating a slightly
>>> sub-optimum contact patch right after rotation WILL get longer
>>> service life out of each tire.

>>
>>
>>
>> I don't uderstand the theory of this statement. If you are running a
>> tire which has worn a particular way, and now has a sub-optimal
>> contact, wouldn't you think that the "high spots" (the areas with
>> greater pressure in the new location) would wear faster and therfore
>> negate the total tire life assertion?
>>
>> -Fred W

>
>
> Yes, but the tire thus lasts longer than it would if you left it where
> it was so that it wore through to the cord in the first high-wear area.
>


I agree, rotation will lengthen the life of the individual tire, but the
tires will still wear at the same rate as a set.

Here's an example: Because of the large amount of rear camber, my Z3
wears the rear tires (on the inboard edges) twice as fast as the fronts
(which wear pretty evenly) . I can either replace the rears only at
~20k miles and get a total of 40k miles out of 6 tires, or I can rotate
the fronts to the back and thereby get a bit less than 30k miles out of
the original set of 4, and then have to buy 4 new tires.

Plus you either have to swap the wheels yourself or pay someone to do it.

-Fred W
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  #32  
Old May 17th 05, 08:20 PM
Dan
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On 5/17/2005 1:49 PM, Malt_Hound wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>
>> Malt_Hound wrote:
>>
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>
>>>> Timothy J. Lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article >,
>>>>> zerouali > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tyre rotation seems to be a mainly American thing, no one else
>>>>>> ever really mentions or uses it, as far as I've seen. Any
>>>>>> particular reason for this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It all depends on what you're trying to maximize.
>>>>
>>>> If you're trying to extract the utomost performance from every tire,
>>>> then don't rotate because once a wear pattern is established,
>>>> switching it to a different corner of the car would result in a
>>>> sub-optimal contact patch.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, if you don't expect to push your car to its
>>>> absolute lateral G limit all the time (as in the case of 99.9% of
>>>> daily driven cars!) then rotating the tires and tolerating a
>>>> slightly sub-optimum contact patch right after rotation WILL get
>>>> longer service life out of each tire.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't uderstand the theory of this statement. If you are running a
>>> tire which has worn a particular way, and now has a sub-optimal
>>> contact, wouldn't you think that the "high spots" (the areas with
>>> greater pressure in the new location) would wear faster and therfore
>>> negate the total tire life assertion?
>>>
>>> -Fred W

>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, but the tire thus lasts longer than it would if you left it where
>> it was so that it wore through to the cord in the first high-wear area.
>>

>
> I agree, rotation will lengthen the life of the individual tire, but the
> tires will still wear at the same rate as a set.
>
> Here's an example: Because of the large amount of rear camber, my Z3
> wears the rear tires (on the inboard edges) twice as fast as the fronts
> (which wear pretty evenly) . I can either replace the rears only at
> ~20k miles and get a total of 40k miles out of 6 tires, or I can rotate
> the fronts to the back and thereby get a bit less than 30k miles out of
> the original set of 4, and then have to buy 4 new tires.
>
> Plus you either have to swap the wheels yourself or pay someone to do it.
>
> -Fred W


I have noticed most BMWs have a lot of rear camber. Why is this?
  #33  
Old May 17th 05, 10:18 PM
ray
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Steve wrote:
>
> That's just one of the reasons why most people who own them never use
> either a Viper or NSX for basic transportation without a backup car.
> Worse than that, imagine getting a flat on a cross-country trip in the
> middle of nowhere...
>


Well, I don't own a Viper, but I don't run a spare either. The Nitrous
bottle is there.
And it's doubly crazy because I attract nails in my new tires. 6 month
old Goodyears on my Trans Am in 2001 - nail. 3 month Kumhos on my Trans
Am in 2004 - nail. Whereas my stupid truck had the same Hankook
junktires forever... they wouldn't die, nor did they wear...

(I would take the bottle out and put the spare in before going on a long
trip tho... but both flats have been close to home.)
  #34  
Old May 18th 05, 05:34 AM
tech27
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Here's what I've been told.

Dealers don't like doing rotations because very often people come back to
complain of vibration, noise, etc.
Dealers suggest doing an alignment and dynamic balancing (tire mounted on
car), but customers balk at the cost and infer that the dealer is just
trying to charge for unnecessary work.

The upshot is poor ratings for the dealers, who need to maintain their
customer satisfaction indexes under pressure from BMW NA or CA, so they
would rather just not do a job that doesn't make them much money, especially
when the car is in for service and the customer requests a rotaion,
expecting to pay very little or nothing if the wheels are off for say, a
brake inspection.

Never mind the fact that the whole concept of rotating tires is open to
discussion at best.

So I've been told by a BMW tech.



  #35  
Old May 18th 05, 06:37 PM
Dave Plowman (News)
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In article >,
Dan > wrote:
> I have noticed most BMWs have a lot of rear camber. Why is this?


The negative camber tends to keep the loaded wheel upright when cornering
fast and the car rolls slightly. To prevent oversteer.

--
*Why is it considered necessary to screw down the lid of a coffin?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #36  
Old May 18th 05, 10:59 PM
Malt_Hound
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tech27 wrote:
> Here's what I've been told.
>
> Dealers don't like doing rotations because very often people come back to
> complain of vibration, noise, etc.
> Dealers suggest doing an alignment and dynamic balancing (tire mounted on
> car), but customers balk at the cost and infer that the dealer is just
> trying to charge for unnecessary work.
>
> The upshot is poor ratings for the dealers, who need to maintain their
> customer satisfaction indexes under pressure from BMW NA or CA, so they
> would rather just not do a job that doesn't make them much money, especially
> when the car is in for service and the customer requests a rotaion,
> expecting to pay very little or nothing if the wheels are off for say, a
> brake inspection.
>
> Never mind the fact that the whole concept of rotating tires is open to
> discussion at best.
>
> So I've been told by a BMW tech.


Tech,

Makes sense to me. I think this falls under the old adage of; "If it
ain't broke, don't fix it."

The more time you let someone (including one's self) change things, the
more opportunities there are for problems and mistakes.

-Fred W
  #37  
Old May 19th 05, 02:46 AM
pete
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On Wed, 18 May 2005 17:59:32 -0400, Malt_Hound
> wrote:

>Tech,
>
>Makes sense to me. I think this falls under the old adage of; "If it
>ain't broke, don't fix it."
>
>The more time you let someone (including one's self) change things, the
>more opportunities there are for problems and mistakes.


Mine cannot be rotated as I have different sizes on the fronts!
pete
  #38  
Old May 19th 05, 05:06 AM
tech27
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"Scott en Aztlán" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:34:49 -0400, "tech27"
> > wrote:
> > Hmm... But new BMWs have all routine maintenance included in the price

> of the car (notice I didn't say "free") - so what price is there for
> the customer to balk at?
>


The cost of a dynamic balancing after the rotation, not the cost (if any) to
rotate the tires.



  #39  
Old May 19th 05, 05:13 AM
tech27
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> Tech,
>
> Makes sense to me. I think this falls under the old adage of; "If it
> ain't broke, don't fix it."
>
> The more time you let someone (including one's self) change things, the
> more opportunities there are for problems and mistakes.
>
> -Fred W


I'm glad you see that. I've given this explanation before and lots of people
thought it was ludicrous. Your point is bang on. Tire rotation may possibly
increase the tread life of tires (especially if you throw the spare into the
rotation). But even if it makes sense for this reason alone, a dealer gets
absolutely no benefit from your extra tire life, but potentially has all the
grief to deal with if you end up with shimmy and shake as a result. I've
even hear that service reps will tell a customer, in low tones with a wink
"You know, I just can't give you a reasonable deal on a rotation because
(insert some stupid justification here), but (and please don't say you heard
it from me), Bobby down the street will do it lickety split for next to
nothing".




  #40  
Old May 19th 05, 01:16 PM
Malt_Hound
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tech27 wrote:
> "Scott en Aztlán" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:34:49 -0400, "tech27"
> wrote:
>>
>>>Hmm... But new BMWs have all routine maintenance included in the price

>>
>>of the car (notice I didn't say "free") - so what price is there for
>>the customer to balk at?
>>

>
>
> The cost of a dynamic balancing after the rotation, not the cost (if any) to
> rotate the tires.
>


There is no need to dynamically balance the wheel unless the tires are
removed and reinstalled on different wheels for some reason. Dynamic
balancing is not done "on the car", but rather, on a dynamic balancing
machine.

-Fred W
 




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