Automatic Miatas

gixer wrote:

> 40 years ago, all car enthusiasts said that servo assisted brakes were not
> for sports cars,
> 30 years ago the same was said for power steering,
> 20 years ago to have AC fitted to an enthusiasts car was unimaginable,
> 10 years ago traction control was for wusses.
>
> Things move on mate, Sequential gearbox's are the future as are paddle
> shifts, if we can have the performance and control of a manual box, but not
> have knacker our feet in traffic I can't see the problem with that.

My miata has a manual tranny, no power steering, no A/C and no traction
control, other than my own efforts. The only one that I will miss will
be the A/C, I wouldn't want traction control (even if it was available)
or power steering on this car. I am not saying that all cars should stay
in the dark ages, but with almost every "advance" for safety or comfort,
there are additional costs for parts, extra weight for the vehicle, and
an increased chance of breakdowns and recalls due to the additional
parts and systems that can break and/or require maintenance.

Pat
red '91

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:17:37 +0200, "gixer" > wrote:

>30 years ago the same was said for power steering,
>20 years ago to have AC fitted to an enthusiasts car was unimaginable,

On these two, they were (and are) right.

-- Larry ('95 R)

Hi Pat,

As with most things it is mainly down to personal preference what we feel is
needed or required in any type of car sports cars especially.

Which is how it should be, it is our hard earned money that is paying for
these advances.

But I feel that most of the time the general sports car buying public has a
very snobbish attitude towards advances in technology, take ABS for example,
every report I read 10-15 years ago said ABS was not for performance cars,
they rightly said that a non ABS car can stop quicker and is more
controllable.

But look at the market now how many sports cars do not have ABS?
The only 2 that come to my mind straight away are TVR and Caterham.
And yes you can stop quicker on a track in good conditions when you
prepared, but how about when that truck pulls out on you on a dark and wet
night, are you really going to feather your brakes?
I have raced cars and bikes for the last 20 years, I consider myself to be a
fairly competitive driver at club level, yet in all the prangs I have had I
only had the reactions and frame of mind to feather the brakes 70% of the
time.

There are 2 things that we need to separate.

1/ Driver evolvement/enjoyment,
This is down to personal opinions, for some they love the relaxed into D
automatic, power steering, electric everything ABS traction control to the
hilt.
Others prefer the stripped out wind in your hair bugs in your teeth
motoring, but which ever (or even in between) this cannot be measured as it
is completely subjective

2/ Speed
This is a measurable factor, 1/4 mile times, lap times are probably the most
accurate depending on your flavour of m/sport, as you mention weight is an
extremely important factor in that, but I am sure that a few extra Kilos for
a good power steering and ABS system will outweigh the weight. look at most
racers and you will see one or the other, or both if they are allowed, and
ALL they care about is reliability and lap times.

So I believe that before we make a decision on what view we are going to
take on "advances in car technology" I think we need to sit and think about
what experience really want out of a car.

In my view I think we should have the option to spec our Miatas from
everything to the luxury barge, to the bugs in ya teeth and anything in
between, and if ya see a fellow Miataist, just wave and be happy he or she
is not driving a S2000



Cheers Mark.


"pws" > wrote in message
...
> gixer wrote:
>
>> 40 years ago, all car enthusiasts said that servo assisted brakes were
>> not for sports cars,
>> 30 years ago the same was said for power steering,
>> 20 years ago to have AC fitted to an enthusiasts car was unimaginable,
>> 10 years ago traction control was for wusses.
>>
>> Things move on mate, Sequential gearbox's are the future as are paddle
>> shifts, if we can have the performance and control of a manual box, but
>> not have knacker our feet in traffic I can't see the problem with that.
>
> My miata has a manual tranny, no power steering, no A/C and no traction
> control, other than my own efforts. The only one that I will miss will be
> the A/C, I wouldn't want traction control (even if it was available) or
> power steering on this car. I am not saying that all cars should stay in
> the dark ages, but with almost every "advance" for safety or comfort,
> there are additional costs for parts, extra weight for the vehicle, and an
> increased chance of breakdowns and recalls due to the additional parts and
> systems that can break and/or require maintenance.
>
> Pat
> red '91

It was 25+ years ago, and I was a kid -- we thought all exotics were
"supposed" to have sticks.

{ FYI: I poked around on http://maseratinet.com/default.asp and if my
memory serves me correctly, the car in question was a Khamsin -- I seem to
recall an odd rear back-light that later appeared on the Honda CRX. }

As you point out, though, we learn things as we go along. Today, if I was
considering turbo charging or super charging, I might actually prefer an
automatic for that application. IMHO, they work better with turbos (once
had a Volvo 760 Turbo) and am guessing the same would be true for SCs.

This thread appears to have offered some useful info (unlike me), so keep us
all posted, I'm interested in how things turn out with your car.

Good luck.


"gixer" > wrote in message
...
> Maybe it was a Maserati Quattroporte, not actually available as a stick
> shift.
>
> Or I guess it could be the same type of guy that drives a Enzo Ferrari,
> Ferrari 360, AMG SL55 or near on all the AMG range for that, BMW M5 & M6,
> Audi RS6
> None of which are actually available in stick shift or how about the start
> line of a 2004 F1 GP, again none of which have a stick shift.
>
> Most of these cars have the paddle only shift because, either they do not
> have a manual box that can reliably handle the vast amount of torque
> produced by the engine (AMG), or they have no room for the box to be
> placed where a good shift position should be (Maserati), or they feel a
> good weight distribution is a must (M5, M6) or they just want to push
> their technology and get good balance (Enzo).
>
> And that's not even mentioning The Ferrari 355, Porsche with it's
> tiptronic system, Alfa Romeo, Lamborghini Gallardo or a Murcielago, BMW
> M3, Audi TT, Audi RS etc etc all available with paddle shift.
>
> I am not saying an automatic is better than a manual all the time, but if
> you drive the new TT with its DSG gearbox it is absolutely fantastic, the
> AMG box's aren't as sporty but still smooth as silk,
> Right now most of this technology is fairly new to the aftermarket sales,
> I think in a couple of years time we will see new ECU's for these
> paddle-shift box, enabling us to program them in any way we feel is best,
> shifting quicker than a human can, shifting at full throttle (Audi's DSG).
> Imagine having your gearbox linked to your GPS, you could tell you box to
> shift to a certain gear at a certain corner.
>
> 40 years ago, all car enthusiasts said that servo assisted brakes were not
> for sports cars,
> 30 years ago the same was said for power steering,
> 20 years ago to have AC fitted to an enthusiasts car was unimaginable,
> 10 years ago traction control was for wusses.
>
> Things move on mate, Sequential gearbox's are the future as are paddle
> shifts, if we can have the performance and control of a manual box, but
> not have knacker our feet in traffic I can't see the problem with that.
>
>
>
>
> "The Millers" > wrote in message
> news
>> Some 25 years ago, while working as a stock boy loading speakers and such
>> into people's cars, a customer left his Maserati in front of the store
>> for everyone to notice. Well, notice we did, because we all commented,
>> "What kind of shmuck buys a Maserati with an automatic?"
>>
>> I don't think he bought anything before he left...
>>
>> "Chief_Wiggum" > wrote in message
>> newsnLRd.107454$mt.22910@fed1read03...
>>> Color me as a stick bigot
>>>
>>> Personally I think the only thing that would be worse than an autmatic
>>> Miata
>>> is if they made them with a non-removable hard top !
>>>
>>> The car is SO FUN to drive / shift , I just feel like I'm in a go-kart
>>> all
>>> the time. My OTM is a Mustang GT, and IT has a slushbox in it. Although
>>> it
>>> has the horsepower to overcome the power loss, I still wish IT was a
>>> stick
>>> too.
>>>
>>> Automatic's are for Cadillacs. REAL sports cars have a S T I C K ! ! !
>>> ! *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *posted in good fun... don't feel the need to flame me
>>>
>>>
>>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Oh boy, you had to go there didn't you......
>>>> Some will berate anyone using an automatic in these cars, some people
>>> don't
>>>> mind the ranting and raving THEY WANT AN AUTOMATIC!
>>>> Personally I feel you lose tons of fun and control with an automatic.
>>>> The
>>>> ability to push the car to it's limits has alot to do with knowing
>>>> exactly
>>>> how much power you are applying at any given second (mostly importantly
>>>> on
>>>> exiting corners), using every bit of grip you tires have. The thing I
>>>> hate
>>>> about auto's is you can never be sure which gear they will decide you
>>>> are
>>>> asking for at that critical moment. If you get a higher gear than you
>>> hoped
>>>> / expected, you're dissappointed with a crappy finish to what might
>>>> have
>>>> been a great corner. If you get one lower than you planned, I hate to
>>>> say
>>>> you get too much power, but it tends to come on all at once, not
>>>> smoothly
>>>> like you'd want it to again, ruining an otherwise great corner. You're
>>> just
>>>> much more involved, a more integral part, so to speak, of the driving
>>>> experience. Besides that, Miata's are one of the easiest manuals to
>>>> learn
>>> on
>>>> and one of the most satisfying shifters you will ever experience, so
>>>> you
>>>> miss a great opportunity there.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck,
>>>> Chris
>>>> 92BB&T
>>>>
>>>> "gixer" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> > Ok I have asked already about supercharged/Turbo's Auto Miatas, but
>>>> > it
>>>> seems
>>>> > no one here has fitted any to an Auto.
>>>> >
>>>> > So has anyone here actually got an Auto?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Hi,

The Maser I was thinking about was the new Quattroporte (4 door) at
http://www.maserati.com/jsp/introSot...ceegdgimdfmf.0
As it is not available in manual gearbox form at all, but most of the 4 door
Masers were available in Auto, the thing is in my mind since Ferrari have
owned Maserati they have turned into GT car anyways, which not having an
Auto in this class of cars is commercial suicide, so to call someone a
Schmuk for buying a Grand Tourer in Auto format seems a bit daft to me, I
wonder if they would say the same thing to a guy in a Enzo?

I don't know much at all about Volvos mate, I am guessing they will run
similar boost (8 psi) to the only turbo I would consider purchasing (Flyin
Miata), but a guesstimate is that the spool is smaller giving less
performance gains, but giving less turbo lag as the spin up time would be
reduced.
The other thing is that Volvo designed the gearbox ratios, the computer
controlling the gear changes and turbo to work together, which would not be
the case on my Eunos, who's Auto box is not exactly good even with the
engine in standard trim.

The ideal of course would be the Lancia Deltas method, a supercharger
feeding a turbo, Mmmmmm

Cheers Mark.




"The Millers" > wrote in message
...
> It was 25+ years ago, and I was a kid -- we thought all exotics were
> "supposed" to have sticks.
>
> { FYI: I poked around on http://maseratinet.com/default.asp and if my
> memory serves me correctly, the car in question was a Khamsin -- I seem to
> recall an odd rear back-light that later appeared on the Honda CRX. }
>
> As you point out, though, we learn things as we go along. Today, if I was
> considering turbo charging or super charging, I might actually prefer an
> automatic for that application. IMHO, they work better with turbos (once
> had a Volvo 760 Turbo) and am guessing the same would be true for SCs.
>
> This thread appears to have offered some useful info (unlike me), so keep
> us all posted, I'm interested in how things turn out with your car.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> "gixer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Maybe it was a Maserati Quattroporte, not actually available as a stick
>> shift.
>>
>> Or I guess it could be the same type of guy that drives a Enzo Ferrari,
>> Ferrari 360, AMG SL55 or near on all the AMG range for that, BMW M5 & M6,
>> Audi RS6
>> None of which are actually available in stick shift or how about the
>> start line of a 2004 F1 GP, again none of which have a stick shift.
>>
>> Most of these cars have the paddle only shift because, either they do not
>> have a manual box that can reliably handle the vast amount of torque
>> produced by the engine (AMG), or they have no room for the box to be
>> placed where a good shift position should be (Maserati), or they feel a
>> good weight distribution is a must (M5, M6) or they just want to push
>> their technology and get good balance (Enzo).
>>
>> And that's not even mentioning The Ferrari 355, Porsche with it's
>> tiptronic system, Alfa Romeo, Lamborghini Gallardo or a Murcielago, BMW
>> M3, Audi TT, Audi RS etc etc all available with paddle shift.
>>
>> I am not saying an automatic is better than a manual all the time, but if
>> you drive the new TT with its DSG gearbox it is absolutely fantastic, the
>> AMG box's aren't as sporty but still smooth as silk,
>> Right now most of this technology is fairly new to the aftermarket sales,
>> I think in a couple of years time we will see new ECU's for these
>> paddle-shift box, enabling us to program them in any way we feel is best,
>> shifting quicker than a human can, shifting at full throttle (Audi's
>> DSG).
>> Imagine having your gearbox linked to your GPS, you could tell you box to
>> shift to a certain gear at a certain corner.
>>
>> 40 years ago, all car enthusiasts said that servo assisted brakes were
>> not for sports cars,
>> 30 years ago the same was said for power steering,
>> 20 years ago to have AC fitted to an enthusiasts car was unimaginable,
>> 10 years ago traction control was for wusses.
>>
>> Things move on mate, Sequential gearbox's are the future as are paddle
>> shifts, if we can have the performance and control of a manual box, but
>> not have knacker our feet in traffic I can't see the problem with that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "The Millers" > wrote in message
>> news
>>> Some 25 years ago, while working as a stock boy loading speakers and
>>> such into people's cars, a customer left his Maserati in front of the
>>> store for everyone to notice. Well, notice we did, because we all
>>> commented, "What kind of shmuck buys a Maserati with an automatic?"
>>>
>>> I don't think he bought anything before he left...
>>>
>>> "Chief_Wiggum" > wrote in message
>>> newsnLRd.107454$mt.22910@fed1read03...
>>>> Color me as a stick bigot
>>>>
>>>> Personally I think the only thing that would be worse than an autmatic
>>>> Miata
>>>> is if they made them with a non-removable hard top !
>>>>
>>>> The car is SO FUN to drive / shift , I just feel like I'm in a go-kart
>>>> all
>>>> the time. My OTM is a Mustang GT, and IT has a slushbox in it.
>>>> Although it
>>>> has the horsepower to overcome the power loss, I still wish IT was a
>>>> stick
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>> Automatic's are for Cadillacs. REAL sports cars have a S T I C K ! ! !
>>>> ! *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *posted in good fun... don't feel the need to flame me
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Oh boy, you had to go there didn't you......
>>>>> Some will berate anyone using an automatic in these cars, some people
>>>> don't
>>>>> mind the ranting and raving THEY WANT AN AUTOMATIC!
>>>>> Personally I feel you lose tons of fun and control with an automatic.
>>>>> The
>>>>> ability to push the car to it's limits has alot to do with knowing
>>>>> exactly
>>>>> how much power you are applying at any given second (mostly
>>>>> importantly on
>>>>> exiting corners), using every bit of grip you tires have. The thing I
>>>>> hate
>>>>> about auto's is you can never be sure which gear they will decide you
>>>>> are
>>>>> asking for at that critical moment. If you get a higher gear than you
>>>> hoped
>>>>> / expected, you're dissappointed with a crappy finish to what might
>>>>> have
>>>>> been a great corner. If you get one lower than you planned, I hate to
>>>>> say
>>>>> you get too much power, but it tends to come on all at once, not
>>>>> smoothly
>>>>> like you'd want it to again, ruining an otherwise great corner. You're
>>>> just
>>>>> much more involved, a more integral part, so to speak, of the driving
>>>>> experience. Besides that, Miata's are one of the easiest manuals to
>>>>> learn
>>>> on
>>>>> and one of the most satisfying shifters you will ever experience, so
>>>>> you
>>>>> miss a great opportunity there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck,
>>>>> Chris
>>>>> 92BB&T
>>>>>
>>>>> "gixer" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>> > Ok I have asked already about supercharged/Turbo's Auto Miatas, but
>>>>> > it
>>>>> seems
>>>>> > no one here has fitted any to an Auto.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So has anyone here actually got an Auto?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"gixer" > wrote:

>But look at the market now how many sports cars do not have ABS?
>The only 2 that come to my mind straight away are TVR and Caterham.

Then there is the Miata that comes to my mind. Though it was
formally listed for the M1.5, you would have to special order
the car from Japan to actually get one.

>And yes you can stop quicker on a track in good conditions when you
>prepared, but how about when that truck pulls out on you on a dark and wet
>night, are you really going to feather your brakes?

As far as I know, the data shows that ABS cars are not safer, probably
since the drivers come to rely on the stopping distance they get with
ABS.

>I have raced cars and bikes for the last 20 years, I consider myself to be a
>fairly competitive driver at club level, yet in all the prangs I have had I
>only had the reactions and frame of mind to feather the brakes 70% of the
>time.
>
>There are 2 things that we need to separate.
>
>1/ Driver evolvement/enjoyment,
>This is down to personal opinions, for some they love the relaxed into D
>automatic, power steering, electric everything ABS traction control to the
>hilt.
>Others prefer the stripped out wind in your hair bugs in your teeth
>motoring, but which ever (or even in between) this cannot be measured as it
>is completely subjective
>
>2/ Speed
>This is a measurable factor, 1/4 mile times, lap times are probably the most
>accurate depending on your flavour of m/sport, as you mention weight is an
>extremely important factor in that, but I am sure that a few extra Kilos for
>a good power steering and ABS system will outweigh the weight. look at most
>racers and you will see one or the other, or both if they are allowed, and
>ALL they care about is reliability and lap times.

It is absolute time that we replace human drivers with computers
at such events. Only they can achieve the highest speed. To keep
box office receipts, we can put an android resembling the announced
driver in each car, while that driver is secretly in a remote-control
boot for emergency computer override. Of course, drivers would be
required to sign a statement to disappear from the sport if an
accident "killed" them. Much safer and better for all involved.

Singers lip-syncing, presidents giving speeches decided by others
and written by others, sports figures turned into steroid
robots, etc, are all doing it all the time. Now that computers
can do driving much better, let's get rid of the human idiot
slowpokes at the wheel in competitive events, OK?

Of course, some of us like cars just for the fun of them...

Leon, and Bozo, no longer sporting power steering.

--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)

gixer wrote:
> Hi Pat,
>
> As with most things it is mainly down to personal preference what we feel is
> needed or required in any type of car sports cars especially.
>
> Which is how it should be, it is our hard earned money that is paying for
> these advances.
>
> But I feel that most of the time the general sports car buying public has a
> very snobbish attitude towards advances in technology, take ABS for example,
> every report I read 10-15 years ago said ABS was not for performance cars,
> they rightly said that a non ABS car can stop quicker and is more
> controllable.
>
> But look at the market now how many sports cars do not have ABS?
> The only 2 that come to my mind straight away are TVR and Caterham.
> And yes you can stop quicker on a track in good conditions when you
> prepared, but how about when that truck pulls out on you on a dark and wet
> night, are you really going to feather your brakes?
> I have raced cars and bikes for the last 20 years, I consider myself to be a
> fairly competitive driver at club level, yet in all the prangs I have had I
> only had the reactions and frame of mind to feather the brakes 70% of the
> time.
>
> There are 2 things that we need to separate.
>
> 1/ Driver evolvement/enjoyment,
> This is down to personal opinions, for some they love the relaxed into D
> automatic, power steering, electric everything ABS traction control to the
> hilt.
> Others prefer the stripped out wind in your hair bugs in your teeth
> motoring, but which ever (or even in between) this cannot be measured as it
> is completely subjective
>
> 2/ Speed
> This is a measurable factor, 1/4 mile times, lap times are probably the most
> accurate depending on your flavour of m/sport, as you mention weight is an
> extremely important factor in that, but I am sure that a few extra Kilos for
> a good power steering and ABS system will outweigh the weight. look at most
> racers and you will see one or the other, or both if they are allowed, and
> ALL they care about is reliability and lap times.
>
> So I believe that before we make a decision on what view we are going to
> take on "advances in car technology" I think we need to sit and think about
> what experience really want out of a car.
>
> In my view I think we should have the option to spec our Miatas from
> everything to the luxury barge, to the bugs in ya teeth and anything in
> between, and if ya see a fellow Miataist, just wave and be happy he or she
> is not driving a S2000
>
>
>
> Cheers Mark.

I have mixed feelings about ABS. My last car had it, and I only felt it
engage a few times during the 5 years that I drove the car. I hit a deer
on a dark road with that car and never had a chance to hit the brake
pedal, much less feather it.
People have been arguing for a long time about whether they can stop
faster with or without ABS, but the thing that a good ABS and/or
traction control system will do is to apply different braking rates to
the different wheels depending on wheel speed, which is very helpful for
correcting the common driver error of stomping on the brakes no matter
what when an emergency arises, such as losing control of the rear end.
Since at least 9 out of 10 people that I have asked don't even know what
is going on with weight transfer during braking and accelerating, this
is probably a good feature for the average driver.

The miata is my favorite, but where I live with roadways full of
vehicles that weigh over 5000 pounds, the sight of any roadster is a
nice thing. :-)

Pat

Most pre 94 Eunos do not have ABS mine included, as are a lot of European
models, a none ABS NA1 is not so rare.

I have got no idea where your point of Robots driving cars is come from Leon
maybe something was lost in the translation from English to American.

It is a fact that if technology is allowed into a discipline of motor sport
most of the time they use it, Formula 1 cars use power steering drive by
wire and sequential paddle shift gearbox's, as do most disciplines of
touring cars.

I think we are many years off a computer being able to drive a complete car
as efficiently and as fast as Leob dude, and although his car has a
sequential gearbox, throttle by wire, power steering and even
air-conditioning I would not call it slow or boring.

All of these technical advances obviously are reliable enough to finish a
race (extremely difficult in a rally car) and all obviously make the
respective cars go faster or else they would not use them.
So if your measure of a sports car is its speed then it definitely needs
ABS, power steering and a sequential or paddle shift type gearbox (Semi
Auto),

If on the other hand your measure of a sports car is it's feel, then each of
us can have what ever we choose in our cars, as feel is like art completely
subjective, if we feel that an auto box has more sporty feel then that's how
we feel, the same for power steering traction control etc,
What we feel is faster is often in real world situations not faster, take a
sports exhaust for example, because it sounds louder, often we make the
judgement that it makes the car faster, whereas in real life on the Dyno
often we only get 2% - 3% BHP extra, I think even Schumacher, with seat of
his pants Dyno would have problems detecting that small gain.

What really gets me is the snobbish attitudes, all this cr*p about
technology being boring or not a real sports car etc,
You talk about computers driving cars Leon. tell what do you think controls
your car mate?
What makes millisecond decision so that your car can start first turn of the
key?
What monitors the engine, the air, throttle position and makes millisecond
decisions to keep your car running whether you are up a mountain or at sea
level, in the cold damp hill or a hot sunning beach?
Should we go back to the days of side draught carbs that needed adjusting
every time someone farted within 20m of the car?

This is my car, I have worked hard to save the money to buy my car, I have
worked hard to pay for the modifications, if you do not want an Auto box, or
a sports exhaust or anything else fine that's your choice, you can buy a
pink fairy light for the front of your car if it makes you happy,
If you think your car is faster then maybe it is, good on ya mate, but I
think its not good to disrespect people because they drive an Auto, ABS,
power steering, traction control'd car, especially when there is nothing to
back up the claim that it's not a real sports car.

Cheers Mark.



"Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message
...
> "gixer" > wrote:
>
>>But look at the market now how many sports cars do not have ABS?
>>The only 2 that come to my mind straight away are TVR and Caterham.
>
> Then there is the Miata that comes to my mind. Though it was
> formally listed for the M1.5, you would have to special order
> the car from Japan to actually get one.
>
>>And yes you can stop quicker on a track in good conditions when you
>>prepared, but how about when that truck pulls out on you on a dark and wet
>>night, are you really going to feather your brakes?
>
> As far as I know, the data shows that ABS cars are not safer, probably
> since the drivers come to rely on the stopping distance they get with
> ABS.
>
>>I have raced cars and bikes for the last 20 years, I consider myself to be
>>a
>>fairly competitive driver at club level, yet in all the prangs I have had
>>I
>>only had the reactions and frame of mind to feather the brakes 70% of the
>>time.
>>
>>There are 2 things that we need to separate.
>>
>>1/ Driver evolvement/enjoyment,
>>This is down to personal opinions, for some they love the relaxed into D
>>automatic, power steering, electric everything ABS traction control to the
>>hilt.
>>Others prefer the stripped out wind in your hair bugs in your teeth
>>motoring, but which ever (or even in between) this cannot be measured as
>>it
>>is completely subjective
>>
>>2/ Speed
>>This is a measurable factor, 1/4 mile times, lap times are probably the
>>most
>>accurate depending on your flavour of m/sport, as you mention weight is an
>>extremely important factor in that, but I am sure that a few extra Kilos
>>for
>>a good power steering and ABS system will outweigh the weight. look at
>>most
>>racers and you will see one or the other, or both if they are allowed, and
>>ALL they care about is reliability and lap times.
>
> It is absolute time that we replace human drivers with computers
> at such events. Only they can achieve the highest speed. To keep
> box office receipts, we can put an android resembling the announced
> driver in each car, while that driver is secretly in a remote-control
> boot for emergency computer override. Of course, drivers would be
> required to sign a statement to disappear from the sport if an
> accident "killed" them. Much safer and better for all involved.
>
> Singers lip-syncing, presidents giving speeches decided by others
> and written by others, sports figures turned into steroid
> robots, etc, are all doing it all the time. Now that computers
> can do driving much better, let's get rid of the human idiot
> slowpokes at the wheel in competitive events, OK?
>
> Of course, some of us like cars just for the fun of them...
>
> Leon, and Bozo, no longer sporting power steering.
>
> --
> Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
> http://www.dommelen.net/miata
> EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)

I recon the best advantage with ABS is the fact that you can turn while
braking,

But I have had some really bad experiences with bad ABS systems, I was
driving a 1990 911 that just refused to stop on the approach to a corner,
the brake pedal was to the floor and juddering like Lil Kim's vibrator with
new batteries but it would no stop, luckily with a little downshifting
sideways slipping hand flailing I managed to get round the corner, I was a
few years before I bought a car with ABS after that though.

Its impossible to say how many accidents ABS has helped reduce, But there is
no doubt ABS is great for the most types of emergency stops, that is or
course if the guy behind you has it as well!!!!

Cheers Mark.


"pws" > wrote in message
...
> gixer wrote:
>> Hi Pat,
>>
>> As with most things it is mainly down to personal preference what we feel
>> is needed or required in any type of car sports cars especially.
>>
>> Which is how it should be, it is our hard earned money that is paying for
>> these advances.
>>
>> But I feel that most of the time the general sports car buying public has
>> a very snobbish attitude towards advances in technology, take ABS for
>> example, every report I read 10-15 years ago said ABS was not for
>> performance cars, they rightly said that a non ABS car can stop quicker
>> and is more controllable.
>>
>> But look at the market now how many sports cars do not have ABS?
>> The only 2 that come to my mind straight away are TVR and Caterham.
>> And yes you can stop quicker on a track in good conditions when you
>> prepared, but how about when that truck pulls out on you on a dark and
>> wet night, are you really going to feather your brakes?
>> I have raced cars and bikes for the last 20 years, I consider myself to
>> be a fairly competitive driver at club level, yet in all the prangs I
>> have had I only had the reactions and frame of mind to feather the brakes
>> 70% of the time.
>>
>> There are 2 things that we need to separate.
>>
>> 1/ Driver evolvement/enjoyment,
>> This is down to personal opinions, for some they love the relaxed into D
>> automatic, power steering, electric everything ABS traction control to
>> the hilt.
>> Others prefer the stripped out wind in your hair bugs in your teeth
>> motoring, but which ever (or even in between) this cannot be measured as
>> it is completely subjective
>>
>> 2/ Speed
>> This is a measurable factor, 1/4 mile times, lap times are probably the
>> most accurate depending on your flavour of m/sport, as you mention weight
>> is an extremely important factor in that, but I am sure that a few extra
>> Kilos for a good power steering and ABS system will outweigh the weight.
>> look at most racers and you will see one or the other, or both if they
>> are allowed, and ALL they care about is reliability and lap times.
>>
>> So I believe that before we make a decision on what view we are going to
>> take on "advances in car technology" I think we need to sit and think
>> about what experience really want out of a car.
>>
>> In my view I think we should have the option to spec our Miatas from
>> everything to the luxury barge, to the bugs in ya teeth and anything in
>> between, and if ya see a fellow Miataist, just wave and be happy he or
>> she is not driving a S2000
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers Mark.
>
> I have mixed feelings about ABS. My last car had it, and I only felt it
> engage a few times during the 5 years that I drove the car. I hit a deer
> on a dark road with that car and never had a chance to hit the brake
> pedal, much less feather it.
> People have been arguing for a long time about whether they can stop
> faster with or without ABS, but the thing that a good ABS and/or traction
> control system will do is to apply different braking rates to the
> different wheels depending on wheel speed, which is very helpful for
> correcting the common driver error of stomping on the brakes no matter
> what when an emergency arises, such as losing control of the rear end.
> Since at least 9 out of 10 people that I have asked don't even know what
> is going on with weight transfer during braking and accelerating, this is
> probably a good feature for the average driver.
>
> The miata is my favorite, but where I live with roadways full of vehicles
> that weigh over 5000 pounds, the sight of any roadster is a nice thing.
> :-)
>
> Pat

"gixer" > wrote:

>It is a fact that if technology is allowed into a discipline of motor sport
>most of the time they use it, Formula 1 cars use power steering drive by
>wire and sequential paddle shift gearbox's, as do most disciplines of
>touring cars.

The logical conclusion of replacing human skill with technology
is to take out the useless human completely. As passenger planes
in fact do.

>I think we are many years off a computer being able to drive a complete car
>as efficiently and as fast as Leob dude,

I think you are completely wrong. Cars on a given race track
driven by computers are a relatively simple problem. And unlike
humans, computers are exact, allowing the maximum speed to be
driven.

>So if your measure of a sports car is its speed

Sorry. From the discussion, it is however obvious that this is
*your* measure. Which is sad.

> then it definitely needs
>ABS, power steering and a sequential or paddle shift type gearbox (Semi
>Auto),

And robot operators, as logical conclusion.

>You talk about computers driving cars Leon. tell what do you think controls
>your car mate?
>What makes millisecond decision so that your car can start first turn of the
>key?
>What monitors the engine, the air, throttle position and makes millisecond
>decisions to keep your car running whether you are up a mountain or at sea
>level, in the cold damp hill or a hot sunning beach?

Apparently in Greece you operated your carburetor manually every
intake cycle in the past. I am impressed.

Leon

>Should we go back to the days of side draught carbs that needed adjusting
>every time someone farted within 20m of the car?

--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)