Gas prices forcing me to look for better MPG, questions on saturns

"navaidstech" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> Why did you do the valve seals? I only ask because you say next that you
>> do
>> not add oil between changes. What do you mean "refurbish" the lifters?
>
> I replaced the seals on spec. I noticed the spark plugs were getting
> gummed with burned oil causing the engine to operate intermittently at
> times.
> When I say "refurbish", I mean take the lifters out, dunk them in a
> degreaser solution overnight, take them apart and free up the little
> pistons inside them. I found 7 out of 8 lifters seized.

Good diagnosis on cause of oil consumption and plug fouling. I bet the
valve train really quieted down after cleaning the lifters (? i guess they
are called lifters even if they actually don't). It is interesting that the
lifters would gum up with synthetic oil. Your extended drain intervals may
be a contributor but this would not cause valve seal wear, and cleaning the
lifters is just good practice when the cam is removed.

>> Were they making noise? Did you use air or ??? to hold the valves so you
>> could change the seals?
>
> I tried air but didn't have much luck with that so I opted to use a
> string. I would bring the piston down, pack the cylinder with string,
> then bring the piston up to push the string against the valves. Worked
> like a charm.

Good technique.

>> So much for those who claim all Saturns burn oil after 200k km. Have you
>> always used this synthetic oil? and this change interval?
>
> Actually, before the valve seals, I drained 2.75 quarts. After the
> seal job, I drained 3.5.
> I've been using synthetic since the car was 110,000 km old and always
> do it every 10,000 km. I found that Costco has the best price for 5-50
> Syntec.

Oil consumption of 1.25 quarts in 10k km is still very low IMHO, but the
improvement after the valve seal job shows you have a good lower end and
your rings and pistons must be very clean.

>> > 3. Clutch? Yes.... original too.
>>
>> Nicely done, you must have good starting and shifting technique.
>
> Yeah. I avoid jackrabbit starts and try to shift as smoothly as
> possible. Sometimes you can't even tell when I shift, I have it down to
> an art now. hi hi.
> BTW, I checked the RPM gauge on the way from work today and it seems
> that I shift around 2300 for the first 3 gears and then about 2100-2200
> for the last two.

I hesitate to offer advice to anyone who is having as much success as you
are, but FWIW my (.02) thoughts are at
http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.au...4c5d9 a6c9152

>> Catching the torn boot problem shows good inspection habits.
>
> Well, to this day I'm not sure if it was torn or was it something I did
> to it while working in the area. Oh well, it was a good exercise
> nonetheless.

I had to do this job the day after I had it at the alignment shop and
replaced lower arms w/ ball joints. The boot was damaged by a crowbar. I
had to tear it apart again and fix the boot but the shop did stand behind it
and gave me a refund for parts and labour.

snip
>> I have had a hard time keeping this dam in place but have not noticed any
>> overheating problems operating without it. It will help control gravel
>
> My car was overheating last couple of summers. Even in +9C weather the
> needle would swing past the middle, something that has never happened
> before. I kinda suspected the air dam but was convinced that my rad was
> plugged. I cleaned it with a weak CLR solution (yes, I know don't say
> it). Basically I circulated this solution through the rad for 30
> minutes or so. Then I checked the capacity, it seemed OK (I think 1.6
> litres),

Aluminum compatible glycol is high in silicates which can cause problems
with water pump seals and deposits of silica gel in the rads. My favorite
heavy diesel shops recommend using Calgon water softener as a cooling system
cleaner after draining but before flushing. I am now using a long life high
quality diesel coolant and it seems to work well. It is a glycol compatible
but I still did a thorough flush before installing. It is a five year low
silicate type fluid. I do use distilled water only for final flush and
coolant mixing, it is cheap and avoids using my local water which is very
hard.

snip
>> This is very similar to our operation. We have '96 SW1 and have aveaged
>> 42
>> mi/impgal (6.8 lt/100km) since new, total combined city/highway all
>> season.
>> On the highway my wife gets 49 mi/impgal (5.9 lt/100km) but I never seem
>> to
>> do that well (I do have a heavier foot). I do notice that if I leave the
>> roof rack in place it uses about 1 lt/100km more fuel.
>>
>
> Yes, that all makes sense. Your wife sure does pretty good with
> 5.9lt/100 for sure. I'm yet to find an optimum speed where the fuel
> consumption is the best.

Economy vs time is always a compromise, I think slower is always cheaper
but things start to get more expensive above 2400 rpm. My wife spends more
time in the sweet spot which I think is between 22-2400rpm. I am more often
at 24-2800+ rpm.

>> You do not mention any exhaust work, if you are still on the original
>> exhaust it is a good example of the better materials used in current
>> factory
>> auto exhaust. We have had failures of the muffler mounting strap due to
>> corrosion on both of our cars. The rest of the system seems to be quite
>> corrosion resistant.
>>
>
> Sorry about that. I'm on my fourth muffler now. The original one lasted
> 6 or 7 years. Susequent mufflers failed as you have suggested, right
> where the straps are.
> The last muffler I put on this car is a cheapo one. I coated it with a
> few coats of heat resistant paint from Canadian Tire to extend its life
> - so far so good. Fingers crossed.
> But you are right, the rest of the system is original. I even went to
> get it replaced but the mechanic told me to save my bucks and don't
> bother.
> I should also mention the cat is original as well and it passes the
> emission tests every two years.

We are still on our original mufflers but they are tied in place with heavy
wire. I do have a new clamp but the wire seems to last longer than the
clamps.

>> You have had very good service from your car, I hope we can do as well.
>> I
>> am guessing you also get good service life from your brakes and tires.
>
> Hmmm... I'm probably on my fourth or fifth set of pads, third set of
> rotors and fourth set of tires, second set of shoes (replaced last
> year) but the drums are still original and STILL within spec on
> diameter.

My pads seem to outlast the rotors. The original rotors were the worst and
suffered severe corrosion and pitting on the inner faces. We are getting
good service now using top quality pads and cheap offshore rotors. I do not
believe in turning rotors as the machining cost is only a little cheaper
than new offshore rotors which will always be much thicker than used refaced
and do not warp as easily.

We purchased a second set of rims so we can save our newest tires for winter
and wear out our poorest in the summer. It is really handy to have lots of
mounted tires.

>> These cars are now getting old enough that they will be showing up in the
>> discount 'pick your part' auto wreckers so we may be able to keep them
>
> Oh yes! I visit my local junkyard on a regular basis!
>
>> economically serviceable for some time. I am also a believer in buying
>> new
>> and using carefully until full service life is over. These cars are now
>> showing up in the very cheap used market and will soon be such good value
>> (cheap) that it will be worth buying a good one just to use for parts.
>> We
>> have SW bodies which are very usable but use the most of the same parts
>> as
>> the sedans. My observation has always been that nothing you have a spare
>> part for ever breaks!
>>
>
> You are absolutely correct. I never have any trouble finding parts for
> this car, either aftermarket or at a junk yard. I keep a few parts that
> I collect during my junkyard trips at hand just in case....you never
> know.
> I agree with you on buying one just for spares. My Dad actually picked
> up a 95 SL1 from a junkyard for $700. It would have been a perfect
> spares car for me, but he fixed it up and now he drives it. Not sure
> how much longer though, it burns oil like there is no tomorrow (yes, we
> changed oil seals on the valves).
> If he decides to get rid of it, I already have a list of things to take
> off it for my car.

It seems like there comes a time using an older car when you need new tires
and battery and can buy a fair running car with good tires and battery for
about what new ones cost and you get the rest of the car for free. Having a
second running car as a spare eases the pain when your primary driver needs
repair and you can just change over the plates and insurance and take your
time to do a good cheap repair with no time pressure.

> Yes, I'm a navaids tech working for Nav Canada at the Hamilton Airport.
> That's my daily commute Mississauga-Hamilton-MIssissauga = 125 clicks!
>
>
> Whereabouts are you located? I don't even know your name....

CYBW

Good luck, YMMV

On Tue, 02 May 2006 06:20:30 GMT, "Private" >
wrote:

> It is interesting that the
>lifters would gum up with synthetic oil. Your extended drain intervals may
>be a contributor but this would not cause valve seal wear, and cleaning the
>lifters is just good practice when the cam is removed.


The problem with these extended drains is that will they oil may not
break down, it will get dirty and loose its cleaning abilty and it a
mileage engine, there is more blowby that get oil dirty sooner than in
a new tight engine. I venture to say that if the oil change intervale
had been shorter, the lifters would never of gummed up. As a engine
gets to high mileage, I increase the frequecy of its oil changes
because this can help extend life even more.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com

> Oil consumption of 1.25 quarts in 10k km is still very low IMHO, but the
> improvement after the valve seal job shows you have a good lower end and
> your rings and pistons must be very clean.
>

I hate to admit it but I developed a bad habit of not regularly
checking the dipstick. However, that has changed lately and I watch it
like a hawk .
As far as the cylinders, at last check I measured 185 psi in each so
that's not too bad either.

>
> I hesitate to offer advice to anyone who is having as much success as you
> are, but FWIW my (.02) thoughts are at
> http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.au...4c5d9 a6c9152
>

Well, my car could be the living proof of that. The engine very rarely
gets to above 2500 RPM and it has lasted me 15 years trouble free. Even
my friend, who owns a garage in town, is baffled.

>
> Aluminum compatible glycol is high in silicates which can cause problems
> with water pump seals and deposits of silica gel in the rads. My favorite
> heavy diesel shops recommend using Calgon water softener as a cooling system
> cleaner after draining but before flushing. I am now using a long life high
> quality diesel coolant and it seems to work well. It is a glycol compatible
> but I still did a thorough flush before installing. It is a five year low
> silicate type fluid. I do use distilled water only for final flush and
> coolant mixing, it is cheap and avoids using my local water which is very
> hard.
>

I will take this to heart on next coolant change. I replaced mine a
couple of years back but it might be a good idea to do a flush before
summer this year. Last year was blazing hell here in Toronto as far as
temps, you never know what this summer might bring.
One of the hoses has developed a small leak so it might be a good idea
to do a complete cooling system drain/flush once the new one is
installed.

>
> Economy vs time is always a compromise, I think slower is always cheaper
> but things start to get more expensive above 2400 rpm. My wife spends more
> time in the sweet spot which I think is between 22-2400rpm. I am more often
> at 24-2800+ rpm.
>

Yes.. a few years back I took the car to Ottawa and drove at 2700+ most
of the way. You can really see the difference.
However, during regular commuter to/from work, I keep it in the sweet
spot as per your numbers above. I'm in no rush to get to work on time
so I take it easy, this converts to great savings on gas, etc.

>
> We are still on our original mufflers but they are tied in place with heavy
> wire. I do have a new clamp but the wire seems to last longer than the
> clamps.

Not a bad idea. There seems to be a lot of moisture trapped under those
clamps and that's usually where the corrosion occurs first. I will
consider this next time I change the muffler. Besides, those clamps can
be a pain in the rear to put on, especially the aftermarket ones.

>
> My pads seem to outlast the rotors. The original rotors were the worst and
> suffered severe corrosion and pitting on the inner faces. We are getting
> good service now using top quality pads and cheap offshore rotors. I do not
> believe in turning rotors as the machining cost is only a little cheaper
> than new offshore rotors which will always be much thicker than used refaced
> and do not warp as easily.
>
I've been having bad luck with rotors. I had mine turned last year in
October and already I'm noticing a small wobble. It's not as bad as it
was in the past but it's still there. I need to determine which wheel
wobbles on me and try to find the root cause of the problem. Calipers
appear to be good so I'm a little baffled now.
I don't use OEM rotors, just the cheap aftermarket ones. That might be
it... ???

>
> It seems like there comes a time using an older car when you need new tires
> and battery and can buy a fair running car with good tires and battery for
> about what new ones cost and you get the rest of the car for free. Having a
> second running car as a spare eases the pain when your primary driver needs
> repair and you can just change over the plates and insurance and take your
> time to do a good cheap repair with no time pressure.
>
For sure. Case and point is my Dad's Saturn as I mentioned before. He
paid $700 for his. The doors on his are in better condition than mine
and my local junkyard is asking $150 for single door, that's $600 for a
set of four. So which way do I go? Buy a junker with good set of doors
or just the doors? Go figure.
If I had the space, I sure would keep another one here just in case.

> > Yes, I'm a navaids tech working for Nav Canada at the Hamilton Airport.
> > That's my daily commute Mississauga-Hamilton-MIssissauga = 125 clicks!
> >
> >
> > Whereabouts are you located? I don't even know your name....
>
> CYBW

Go Flames!!!!



Take care.

"navaidstech" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
snip
> I will take this to heart on next coolant change. I replaced mine a
> couple of years back but it might be a good idea to do a flush before
> summer this year. Last year was blazing hell here in Toronto as far as
> temps, you never know what this summer might bring.
> One of the hoses has developed a small leak so it might be a good idea
> to do a complete cooling system drain/flush once the new one is
> installed.

Once you have the system drained to change a hose it is a good time to do a
Calgon (dishwasher detergent) clean and flush then instal new coolant. I
would do the cleaning before I changed the hose and the final flush after.
Long life coolant is not much more money depending on where you buy it. I
buy both my coolant and Delco batteries from an industrial and trucking
supply wholesaler which has very good price on both batteries and heavy duty
coolant. I use only distilled water which I buy from a health food store
for 50 cents / gal. My wife also uses it in her cloths iron.

snip
>> We are still on our original mufflers but they are tied in place with
>> heavy
>> wire. I do have a new clamp but the wire seems to last longer than the
>> clamps.
>
> Not a bad idea. There seems to be a lot of moisture trapped under those
> clamps and that's usually where the corrosion occurs first. I will
> consider this next time I change the muffler. Besides, those clamps can
> be a pain in the rear to put on, especially the aftermarket ones.

When my strap failed I tied the muffler up with heavy wire just until I
could get a new strap/hanger. I picked up a new hanger several years ago
but the wire is still working well. I have been feeling guilty, but like
your reasonong, I think I will use it :-)

>> My pads seem to outlast the rotors. The original rotors were the worst
>> and
>> suffered severe corrosion and pitting on the inner faces. We are getting
>> good service now using top quality pads and cheap offshore rotors. I do
>> not
>> believe in turning rotors as the machining cost is only a little cheaper
>> than new offshore rotors which will always be much thicker than used
>> refaced
>> and do not warp as easily.
>>
> I've been having bad luck with rotors. I had mine turned last year in
> October and already I'm noticing a small wobble. It's not as bad as it
> was in the past but it's still there. I need to determine which wheel
> wobbles on me and try to find the root cause of the problem. Calipers
> appear to be good so I'm a little baffled now.
> I don't use OEM rotors, just the cheap aftermarket ones. That might be
> it... ???

I had better sevice from the cheap rotors than the factory ones. I do not
think turning rotors is a good practice as it leaves the rotors too thin and
this contributes to warping.

>> It seems like there comes a time using an older car when you need new
>> tires
>> and battery and can buy a fair running car with good tires and battery
>> for
>> about what new ones cost and you get the rest of the car for free.
>> Having a
>> second running car as a spare eases the pain when your primary driver
>> needs
>> repair and you can just change over the plates and insurance and take
>> your
>> time to do a good cheap repair with no time pressure.
>>
> For sure. Case and point is my Dad's Saturn as I mentioned before. He
> paid $700 for his. The doors on his are in better condition than mine
> and my local junkyard is asking $150 for single door, that's $600 for a
> set of four. So which way do I go? Buy a junker with good set of doors
> or just the doors? Go figure.
> If I had the space, I sure would keep another one here just in case.

Stuff vs. space, it really is nice to have both, but it seems we never have
enough of either.

Good luck, YMMV

On Thu, 04 May 2006 03:09:46 GMT, "Private" >
wrote:

>
>"SnoMan" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Tue, 02 May 2006 06:20:30 GMT, "Private" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is interesting that the
>>>lifters would gum up with synthetic oil. Your extended drain intervals
>>>may
>>>be a contributor but this would not cause valve seal wear, and cleaning
>>>the
>>>lifters is just good practice when the cam is removed.
>>
>>
>> The problem with these extended drains is that will they oil may not
>> break down, it will get dirty and loose its cleaning abilty and it a
>> mileage engine, there is more blowby that get oil dirty sooner than in
>> a new tight engine. I venture to say that if the oil change intervale
>> had been shorter, the lifters would never of gummed up. As a engine
>> gets to high mileage, I increase the frequecy of its oil changes
>> because this can help extend life even more.
>> -----------------
>> The SnoMan
>> www.thesnoman.com
>
>I agree with SnoMan, but it is hard to argue with success. Navaidstech's
>~300k mi engine is using VERY little oil which would lead me to believe
>there is not much blowby. I am personally inclined to not use synthetic oil
>because I like the strategy of frequent changes and the higher price of
>synthetic makes this very costly. If petroil becomes more expensive we may
>see more use of superfine bypass filters to allow more extended change
>intervals. I do not know how much oil circulation there is in the S1
>lifters and it may well be very little.
>
>I also agree that the change interval should be shortened as an engine ages
>and would suggest that oil consumption rate is a fair way to determine this.
>My favored strategy is to add oil as required and use the oil for 3500 mi or
>until it is down a quart which ever comes first. Now that my engine is
>getting older (160k mi) and is starting to use a little oil (1500 mi/qt), I
>will be reducing my change interval to 3000 mi. I have noticed that the
>consumption rate increases as petroil ages and breaks down but I do not know
>if this is also true about synthetic. I have also noticed that not all
>brands of petroil seem to give the same consumption rates. I did try
>Wal-Mart Tech2000 for one change but noticed a large increase in consumption
>rate, I have also noticed that the rate is higher with Castrol which
>surprised me since I have always thought it was good quality oil. I buy
>whatever name branded oil I find on sale. I am not concerned about a
>reasonable oil consumption rate as long as the oil is changed frequently.
>
>Just my .02, YMMV
>
>
>


Year ago I new a guy that had a 283 in a truck that was using about a
quart of oil every 300 miles. He pulled the heads and did a valve job
and it reduced it to about a quart every 600 or 700 miles and he drove
it 70,000 miles that way. He just change the oil every 2K miles and at
the end of the 70K it was using about a quart ever 300-400 miles
again. He kept it alive with frequent oil changes.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com