'88 Prelude AC Clutch/Compressor Noise

Greetings,

My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
recharging.

The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
speed.

I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
persisted.

Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
thresshold?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Greetings,
>
> My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
> refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
> recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
> evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
> recharging.
>
> The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
> new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
> started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
> the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
> increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
> speed.
>
> I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
> clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
> was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
> persisted.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
> would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
> engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
> thresshold?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tom
>

The 88 Honda prelude used an A/C controller module that relied on several
inputs to control various relays involved in Compressor clutch and fan
operation. The symptoms you described would probably be due to problems in
the controller or it's inputs, or maybe even the compressor relay. This is a
fairly complicated electrical A/C control system and would normally require
diagnosis by someone very familiar with the system, or at least the use of a
very good repair manual and wiring diagram along with pretty good
electrical diagnostic skills. I would have to recommend letting a qualified
repair shop handle this one unless you don't mind replacing a lot of good
components on a trial basis. My best GUESS would be that the control module
is malfunctioning, and you still need to find out where the original loss of
refrigerant occurred (although that may have occurred gradually and normally
over the past 18 years).
Good luck.


--
Disclaimer:
Due to the nature of solving problems over the internet being mostly
guesswork,
please do not consider the above recommendations as the only possible
solutions.

--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green

On 27 Jul 2006 10:38:03 -0700, wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
>refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
>recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
>evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
>recharging.
>
>The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
>new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
>started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
>the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
>increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
>speed.
>
>I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
>clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
>was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
>persisted.
>
>Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
>would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
>engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
>thresshold?

LET'S KEEP IT SIMPLE! It could be the clutch being rapidly cycled
electrically or it could be a mechanical noise from the compressor.
Fortunately it is very easy to take this first basic diagnostic step.
A length of wire with an aligator clip on each will determine which it
is -- no researching of wiring diagrams or anything hi-tech at all.
Hot wire the compressor clutch directly to the battery and see if the
noise is still there. If so, you would be advised to take a good look
at the clutch hub -- these often come apart. Some compressors are
noisy when badly undercharged and will actually get quieter with a
full charge. Its worth a try. Do NOT try to get rid of the noise by
blindly adding more and more oil to the system. If the clutch is
being rapidly cycled electrically go ahead and charge the system
properly and see if it persists. If so, then electronic diagnosis
WILL be required. But before speculating about modules etc. DO THE
SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS!!

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

>Thanks in advance,
>Tom

"Don" > wrote in message
...
> On 27 Jul 2006 10:38:03 -0700, wrote:
>
>>Greetings,
>>
>>My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
>>refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
>>recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
>>evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
>>recharging.
>>
>>The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
>>new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
>>started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
>>the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
>>increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
>>speed.
>>
>>I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
>>clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
>>was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
>>persisted.
>>
>>Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
>>would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
>>engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
>>thresshold?
>
> LET'S KEEP IT SIMPLE! It could be the clutch being rapidly cycled
> electrically or it could be a mechanical noise from the compressor.
> Fortunately it is very easy to take this first basic diagnostic step.
> A length of wire with an aligator clip on each will determine which it
> is -- no researching of wiring diagrams or anything hi-tech at all.
> Hot wire the compressor clutch directly to the battery and see if the
> noise is still there. If so, you would be advised to take a good look
> at the clutch hub -- these often come apart. Some compressors are
> noisy when badly undercharged and will actually get quieter with a
> full charge. Its worth a try. Do NOT try to get rid of the noise by
> blindly adding more and more oil to the system. If the clutch is
> being rapidly cycled electrically go ahead and charge the system
> properly and see if it persists. If so, then electronic diagnosis
> WILL be required. But before speculating about modules etc. DO THE
> SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS!!
>
> Don
> www.donsautomotive.com
>
>>Thanks in advance,
>>Tom
>

Good idea Don, I often forget to mention some of those obvious easy checks
that could separate the cats from the dogs. I need to work on that. I guess
the part about it only happening at idle made me think no way it could be
the clutch or compressor itself, and I have run into the same situation on
some of those modules, but of course, it can't hurt to check out the
compressor anyway. Have you ever experienced a noisy compressor or clutch
chattering only at idle that was not electrical. That's a new one for me.
Thanks for taking up my slack. Sure would like to know what this one turns
out to be.


--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:28:56 -0500, "Kevin" > wrote:

>
>"Don" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On 27 Jul 2006 10:38:03 -0700, wrote:
>>
>>>Greetings,
>>>
>>>My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
>>>refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
>>>recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
>>>evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
>>>recharging.
>>>
>>>The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
>>>new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
>>>started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
>>>the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
>>>increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
>>>speed.
>>>
>>>I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
>>>clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
>>>was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
>>>persisted.
>>>
>>>Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
>>>would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
>>>engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
>>>thresshold?
>>
>> LET'S KEEP IT SIMPLE! It could be the clutch being rapidly cycled
>> electrically or it could be a mechanical noise from the compressor.
>> Fortunately it is very easy to take this first basic diagnostic step.
>> A length of wire with an aligator clip on each will determine which it
>> is -- no researching of wiring diagrams or anything hi-tech at all.
>> Hot wire the compressor clutch directly to the battery and see if the
>> noise is still there. If so, you would be advised to take a good look
>> at the clutch hub -- these often come apart. Some compressors are
>> noisy when badly undercharged and will actually get quieter with a
>> full charge. Its worth a try. Do NOT try to get rid of the noise by
>> blindly adding more and more oil to the system. If the clutch is
>> being rapidly cycled electrically go ahead and charge the system
>> properly and see if it persists. If so, then electronic diagnosis
>> WILL be required. But before speculating about modules etc. DO THE
>> SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS!!
>>
>> Don
>> www.donsautomotive.com
>>
>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>Tom
>>
>
>Good idea Don, I often forget to mention some of those obvious easy checks
>that could separate the cats from the dogs. I need to work on that. I guess
>the part about it only happening at idle made me think no way it could be
>the clutch or compressor itself, and I have run into the same situation on
>some of those modules, but of course, it can't hurt to check out the
>compressor anyway. Have you ever experienced a noisy compressor or clutch
>chattering only at idle that was not electrical.

Often -- when the clutch hub damper springs are broken, or, as in
Nippendenso, the rubber dampening material is starting to tear.

On some compressors the reed valves make a lot of noise until the
system is fully charged.

Anyway, a 2 foot length of wire will tell if the problem lies in the
compressor itself or elsewhere.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com



> That's a new one for me.
>Thanks for taking up my slack. Sure would like to know what this one turns
>out to be.

Don wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:28:56 -0500, "Kevin" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Don" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On 27 Jul 2006 10:38:03 -0700, wrote:
> >>
> >>>Greetings,
> >>>
> >>>My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
> >>>refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
> >>>recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
> >>>evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
> >>>recharging.
> >>>
> >>>The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
> >>>new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
> >>>started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
> >>>the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
> >>>increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
> >>>speed.
> >>>
> >>>I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
> >>>clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
> >>>was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
> >>>persisted.
> >>>
> >>>Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
> >>>would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
> >>>engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
> >>>thresshold?
> >>
> >> LET'S KEEP IT SIMPLE! It could be the clutch being rapidly cycled
> >> electrically or it could be a mechanical noise from the compressor.
> >> Fortunately it is very easy to take this first basic diagnostic step.
> >> A length of wire with an aligator clip on each will determine which it
> >> is -- no researching of wiring diagrams or anything hi-tech at all.
> >> Hot wire the compressor clutch directly to the battery and see if the
> >> noise is still there. If so, you would be advised to take a good look
> >> at the clutch hub -- these often come apart. Some compressors are
> >> noisy when badly undercharged and will actually get quieter with a
> >> full charge. Its worth a try. Do NOT try to get rid of the noise by
> >> blindly adding more and more oil to the system. If the clutch is
> >> being rapidly cycled electrically go ahead and charge the system
> >> properly and see if it persists. If so, then electronic diagnosis
> >> WILL be required. But before speculating about modules etc. DO THE
> >> SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS!!
> >>
> >> Don
> >> www.donsautomotive.com
> >>
> >>>Thanks in advance,
> >>>Tom
> >>
> >
> >Good idea Don, I often forget to mention some of those obvious easy checks
> >that could separate the cats from the dogs. I need to work on that. I guess
> >the part about it only happening at idle made me think no way it could be
> >the clutch or compressor itself, and I have run into the same situation on
> >some of those modules, but of course, it can't hurt to check out the
> >compressor anyway. Have you ever experienced a noisy compressor or clutch
> >chattering only at idle that was not electrical.
>
> Often -- when the clutch hub damper springs are broken, or, as in
> Nippendenso, the rubber dampening material is starting to tear.
>
> On some compressors the reed valves make a lot of noise until the
> system is fully charged.
>
> Anyway, a 2 foot length of wire will tell if the problem lies in the
> compressor itself or elsewhere.
>
> Don
> www.donsautomotive.com
>
>
>
> > That's a new one for me.
> >Thanks for taking up my slack. Sure would like to know what this one turns
> >out to be.

Thanks to both of you! I had the same thoughts, but for me they were
wild guesses without supporting info from you guys.

The sound is a little bit "reedy" to my untrained ear. I have not
inspected the clutch closely because of it's location. I'll pull the
bottom engine compartment cover and take a closer look, and barring any
obvious problems, I'll finish the charge and see if the noise stops.

Tom

On 28 Jul 2006 09:36:52 -0700, wrote:

>
>Don wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:28:56 -0500, "Kevin" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Don" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On 27 Jul 2006 10:38:03 -0700, wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Greetings,
>> >>>
>> >>>My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
>> >>>refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
>> >>>recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
>> >>>evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
>> >>>recharging.
>> >>>
>> >>>The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
>> >>>new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
>> >>>started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
>> >>>the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
>> >>>increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
>> >>>speed.
>> >>>
>> >>>I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
>> >>>clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
>> >>>was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
>> >>>persisted.
>> >>>
>> >>>Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
>> >>>would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
>> >>>engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
>> >>>thresshold?
>> >>
>> >> LET'S KEEP IT SIMPLE! It could be the clutch being rapidly cycled
>> >> electrically or it could be a mechanical noise from the compressor.
>> >> Fortunately it is very easy to take this first basic diagnostic step.
>> >> A length of wire with an aligator clip on each will determine which it
>> >> is -- no researching of wiring diagrams or anything hi-tech at all.
>> >> Hot wire the compressor clutch directly to the battery and see if the
>> >> noise is still there. If so, you would be advised to take a good look
>> >> at the clutch hub -- these often come apart. Some compressors are
>> >> noisy when badly undercharged and will actually get quieter with a
>> >> full charge. Its worth a try. Do NOT try to get rid of the noise by
>> >> blindly adding more and more oil to the system. If the clutch is
>> >> being rapidly cycled electrically go ahead and charge the system
>> >> properly and see if it persists. If so, then electronic diagnosis
>> >> WILL be required. But before speculating about modules etc. DO THE
>> >> SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS!!
>> >>
>> >> Don
>> >> www.donsautomotive.com
>> >>
>> >>>Thanks in advance,
>> >>>Tom
>> >>
>> >
>> >Good idea Don, I often forget to mention some of those obvious easy checks
>> >that could separate the cats from the dogs. I need to work on that. I guess
>> >the part about it only happening at idle made me think no way it could be
>> >the clutch or compressor itself, and I have run into the same situation on
>> >some of those modules, but of course, it can't hurt to check out the
>> >compressor anyway. Have you ever experienced a noisy compressor or clutch
>> >chattering only at idle that was not electrical.
>>
>> Often -- when the clutch hub damper springs are broken, or, as in
>> Nippendenso, the rubber dampening material is starting to tear.
>>
>> On some compressors the reed valves make a lot of noise until the
>> system is fully charged.
>>
>> Anyway, a 2 foot length of wire will tell if the problem lies in the
>> compressor itself or elsewhere.
>>
>> Don
>> www.donsautomotive.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > That's a new one for me.
>> >Thanks for taking up my slack. Sure would like to know what this one turns
>> >out to be.
>
>Thanks to both of you! I had the same thoughts, but for me they were
>wild guesses without supporting info from you guys.
>
>The sound is a little bit "reedy" to my untrained ear. I have not
>inspected the clutch closely because of it's location. I'll pull the
>bottom engine compartment cover and take a closer look, and barring any
>obvious problems, I'll finish the charge and see if the noise stops.
>
>Tom

By all means charge it fully. If the noise persists check it out with
the clutch hot-wired direct to the battery and let us know.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

Donald Lewis wrote:
> On 28 Jul 2006 09:36:52 -0700, wrote:
>
> >
> >Don wrote:
> >> On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:28:56 -0500, "Kevin" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Don" > wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> >> On 27 Jul 2006 10:38:03 -0700, wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>Greetings,
> >> >>>
> >> >>>My father-in-law's '88 Honda Prelude gradually lost it's AC
> >> >>>refridgerant charge such that the compressor would no longer engage. I
> >> >>>recovered the remaining R12 (actually had this done at a shop) and
> >> >>>evacuated the system). The vacuum held for several hours so I began
> >> >>>recharging.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>The compressor clutch engaged as expected as the system accepted the
> >> >>>new charge, but after about five minutes the clutch or compressor
> >> >>>started making a rapid loud clicking noise. This persisted as long as
> >> >>>the car was idling, but disappeared when the engine RPM's were
> >> >>>increased. Yes, the clutch remained engaged when I increased the engine
> >> >>>speed.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>I stopped charging at that point, suspecting that the compressor or
> >> >>>clutch may be bad. I probably got about half a can of r12 in there and
> >> >>>was just beginning to get some cooling at the vents, but the noise
> >> >>>persisted.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Has anyone else experienced this? It seems very strange that the noise
> >> >>>would only occur at idle. Is it possible that the clutch is rapidly
> >> >>>engaging and re-engaging because the pressure is just at the
> >> >>>thresshold?
> >> >>
> >> >> LET'S KEEP IT SIMPLE! It could be the clutch being rapidly cycled
> >> >> electrically or it could be a mechanical noise from the compressor.
> >> >> Fortunately it is very easy to take this first basic diagnostic step.
> >> >> A length of wire with an aligator clip on each will determine which it
> >> >> is -- no researching of wiring diagrams or anything hi-tech at all.
> >> >> Hot wire the compressor clutch directly to the battery and see if the
> >> >> noise is still there. If so, you would be advised to take a good look
> >> >> at the clutch hub -- these often come apart. Some compressors are
> >> >> noisy when badly undercharged and will actually get quieter with a
> >> >> full charge. Its worth a try. Do NOT try to get rid of the noise by
> >> >> blindly adding more and more oil to the system. If the clutch is
> >> >> being rapidly cycled electrically go ahead and charge the system
> >> >> properly and see if it persists. If so, then electronic diagnosis
> >> >> WILL be required. But before speculating about modules etc. DO THE
> >> >> SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS!!
> >> >>
> >> >> Don
> >> >> www.donsautomotive.com
> >> >>
> >> >>>Thanks in advance,
> >> >>>Tom
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Good idea Don, I often forget to mention some of those obvious easy checks
> >> >that could separate the cats from the dogs. I need to work on that. I guess
> >> >the part about it only happening at idle made me think no way it could be
> >> >the clutch or compressor itself, and I have run into the same situation on
> >> >some of those modules, but of course, it can't hurt to check out the
> >> >compressor anyway. Have you ever experienced a noisy compressor or clutch
> >> >chattering only at idle that was not electrical.
> >>
> >> Often -- when the clutch hub damper springs are broken, or, as in
> >> Nippendenso, the rubber dampening material is starting to tear.
> >>
> >> On some compressors the reed valves make a lot of noise until the
> >> system is fully charged.
> >>
> >> Anyway, a 2 foot length of wire will tell if the problem lies in the
> >> compressor itself or elsewhere.
> >>
> >> Don
> >> www.donsautomotive.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > That's a new one for me.
> >> >Thanks for taking up my slack. Sure would like to know what this one turns
> >> >out to be.
> >
> >Thanks to both of you! I had the same thoughts, but for me they were
> >wild guesses without supporting info from you guys.
> >
> >The sound is a little bit "reedy" to my untrained ear. I have not
> >inspected the clutch closely because of it's location. I'll pull the
> >bottom engine compartment cover and take a closer look, and barring any
> >obvious problems, I'll finish the charge and see if the noise stops.
> >
> >Tom
>
> By all means charge it fully. If the noise persists check it out with
> the clutch hot-wired direct to the battery and let us know.
>
> Don
> www.donsautomotive.com

Well, it's charged and cooling nicely. The noise is still there at idle
only, and it's intermittent at that.

According to the specs from the Honda dealer, it is now fully charged
(2.25 lbs.), but it "acts" like it's still a little bit low on
refridgerant. That is, the vent air temp rises considerably when idling
(but that could be because the clicking clutch is not engaged
full-time). Also, I can still see a very few bubbles in the sight
glass. This is the first system I've repaired that has a sight glass,
so I'm not sure what to look for.

I was tempted to add a little more refridgerant, but decided not to
since the poundage is correct. If there is a major leak, I'll know it
in a few days.

By the way, the original leak was almost certainly due to a loose
Schrader valve. I replaced that before evacuating and as I mentioned
earlier, the vacuum appeared to be holding.

By the way Don, nice website. I'm impressed that you publish your parts
markup. I wish you were in Dallas!!!! I do my own (and my in-law's!!!)
repairs for the most part, but I'm also pretty good at recognizing when
a job is over my head and I like to have a relationship with an honest
shop. I have a great transmission shop up here, and a great muffler &
alignment shop, but no general repair shop that I trust.

Tom