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Proactive Maintenance of a 98 Camry



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 26th 05, 11:26 PM
DTJ
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:25:41 -0500, "Ray O"
> wrote:

>This is true, however, of the 100 or so dealerships I've personally dealt
>with, I'd say 70% were technically good, another 25% were excellent, and the
>remaining 5% were poor. The proportions of good, excellent, and poor
>technicians who worked at the dealerships is probably about the same. Your
>chances of getting good service on your Toyota at a Toyota dealer are at
>least as good and probably better than your chances of getting that same
>level of technical competence at an independent shop.


Statistically this is invalid. First, it is unlikely that so many are
"excellent" while so few are "poor". More likely is that you are
rating them unfairly, and too generously.

Second, there is no factual basis to assume that the idiots hired by a
dealer are more intelligent than the idiots hired by an independent
shop. In reality, the reverse is true. The reason to go to the
dealer is not because they somehow know how to hire better mechanics,
but because they have more reason to stand by their repairs when they
fail.

Personally when I need service, I generally use a dealer, if and only
if I can't do it myself, or the cost is so low as to not be worth my
time. I double check their work as much as I would if I took it to an
independent shop. And in the hundreds of places that have worked on
my vehicles, almost every problem has been at a dealer. That includes
adjusting for frequency.
Ads
  #22  
Old June 26th 05, 11:26 PM
DTJ
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:34:28 -0500, "Ray O"
> wrote:

>valves, causing extensive damage. People often find this hard to believe,
>but the folks who make the cars probably know more about the car and the
>cost benefits of performing periodic maintenance than most owners. Whether
>the cost to replace the timing belt is $200 for a Camry or $1,000 for the
>Accord, it is cheaper to change the timing belt before it breaks than
>letting it break and having to tow for an unscheduled repair or worse, tear
>down the engine for major repairs.


According to every Honda mechanic I have asked, and that is more than
a couple, a timing belt failure does not lead to any significant
damage. Every time they recommend a change, I ask them, and they look
down, admit they are just trying to make more money, and walk away
chastened for being caught at it.
  #23  
Old June 26th 05, 11:26 PM
DTJ
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:27:36 -0400, "S.S." > wrote:

>DTJ wrote:
>
>> Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
>> have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
>> similar.
>>

>It should not cost $1000 to change the t-belt and water pump on an Accord.
>I have a '93 Accord, and it cost only $350 to get it done at a private
>mechanic who specializes in Hondas.


Private mechanic...

>> However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
>> which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
>> mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
>> timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
>> to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.

>
>I have heard of many instances of the belt failing past the interval, but
>very few within the interval.


I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
legend you hear on the Internet.
  #24  
Old June 27th 05, 12:06 AM
Steve B.
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:26:30 -0500, DTJ > wrote:
>According to every Honda mechanic I have asked, and that is more than
>a couple, a timing belt failure does not lead to any significant
>damage. Every time they recommend a change, I ask them, and they look
>down, admit they are just trying to make more money, and walk away
>chastened for being caught at it.


I imagine your just a troll having fun at others expense here but just
for the record the Gates book shows virtually every Honda engine from
every yeat to be an interference engine. This means when the belt
breaks you can bend valves or knock holes in the tops of the pistons.

If any sensible folks would like to check it our for themselves go to
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...cation_id=3487 and
select the Timing Belt Replacement Gudie link on that page. It is a
big Adobe doc and takes a minute to download

Steve B.
  #25  
Old June 27th 05, 12:06 AM
William R. Watt
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> Second, there is no factual basis to assume that the idiots hired by a
> dealer are more intelligent than the idiots hired by an independent
> shop. In reality, the reverse is true.


Yes, but, don't dealership have to have their mechanics trained and up to
date according to the manufacturer's standards? Don't dealerships have to have
manufacturer's manuals and diagostic tools? Don't they have access to the
manufacturer's technical advisors?

I've heard some manufacuters put less emphasis on dealership quality
control (eg Chrysler) but others make sure they are doing good service work.

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  #26  
Old June 27th 05, 09:28 AM
Ted Mittelstaedt
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"William R. Watt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > Second, there is no factual basis to assume that the idiots hired by a
> > dealer are more intelligent than the idiots hired by an independent
> > shop. In reality, the reverse is true.

>
> Yes, but, don't dealership have to have their mechanics trained and up to
> date according to the manufacturer's standards? Don't dealerships have to

have
> manufacturer's manuals and diagostic tools? Don't they have access to the
> manufacturer's technical advisors?
>


The problem, William, is that dealer service departments generally work on
late-model cars not older cars, because they get all the warranty work. So
while they may be very competent with 5 year old or younger cars, they
are not with older ones. In fact, the independents are generally more
competent
with older cars. In addition, the car manufacturers regularly obsolete
parts and
it is not uncommon to bring a 10 year old or older vehicle into a dealership
and
have them tell you the parts aren't available anymore, or that you have to
buy
an entire subsystem to get one part out of it, or some such.

I've not had that good experiences with dealerships. I don't use them these
days but I have family members who do. Here's a typical example, about 6
months ago my father decided to take a 1994 Buick Century in to get an
exhaust leak fixed. The rear exhaust manifold was cracked pretty bad (in
fact I was the one who diagnosed it for him, told him why it was making a
funny noise, and pointed out the leak) and while I offered to do it my
father
didn't want to take all my time up on a weekend, fixing it. Anyway, he
took it into the dealership, this was the same dealership that he had bought
a new 2004 Buick from, keep in mind, and they wanted $300 for the
part. I told him to ask the dealership about getting one from a wrecker,
they
waffled around and said if he could find one and bring it in they would use
it, but they were really hard to find. I put him on hold and called a yard
about
2 miles away from where he was at, they had a pile of them, he goes over
and pays them $25 for one and takes it back. Later that afternoon he gets
a
call from the dealership claiming the wrecking yard part was cracked.
I called the wrecker, they said "no problem just bring it back and we'll
give you another one" I called the dealership service department and told
them I would be there in 15 minutes with another manifold. The service
advisor puts me on hold then comes back 5 minutes later saying he had
the tech check it again, and now they are saying it wasn't cracked, they
just thought that a scratch on it was a crack. Sheesh.

Once they quite farting around they did a decent job with the manifold.
Of course they wouldn't warranty it, but hey, this is an exhaust manifold.
The crack in the original (which we kept) was clearly a stress crack,
due to bad design of the manifold, even the wrecker told me that 3/4 of
them that come in are cracked in the same place. The new GM replacement
was not redesigned, so it had as much chance of cracking again. I told
my father if it cracks again, take the one we saved to a welder and have
them weld it, then he would have the part ready to go. And the welder
could probably weld on some additional steel to strengthen it.

Anyway, this is typical of my experience with a dealership service dept.,
they
generally will be square with you if you know exactly what your talking
about when
dealing with them, but they aren't above taking a bit of advantage if they
can. During that same manifold thing, they sold my father a bunch of other
preventative maintainence items, (coolant flush, etc.) so it wasn't like
there
wasn't some gravy in it for them (most of the PM's wern't that out of line
and probably needed to be done, although I did put the kibosh on the
fuel injection flush, then after my dad declined that, they gave it to him
for
free anyway) but they couldn't help but try for that $300 manifold.

Ted


  #27  
Old June 27th 05, 03:15 PM
William R. Watt
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excellent points. I go to wreckers, and to a local garage for work I can't
do myself on my '89 Ford. However, when I used to take long vacations I
used the dealership or a national service chain to take advantage of the wide
geographical warranty coverage.

"Ted Mittelstaedt" ) writes:

> The problem, William, is that dealer service departments generally work on
> late-model cars not older cars, because they get all the warranty work. So
> while they may be very competent with 5 year old or younger cars, they
> are not with older ones. In fact, the independents are generally more
> competent
> with older cars. In addition, the car manufacturers regularly obsolete
> parts and
> it is not uncommon to bring a 10 year old or older vehicle into a dealership
> and
> have them tell you the parts aren't available anymore, or that you have to
> buy
> an entire subsystem to get one part out of it, or some such.


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  #28  
Old June 27th 05, 10:01 PM
Matthew Russotto
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In article >,
DTJ > wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:27:36 -0400, "S.S." > wrote:
>>
>>I have heard of many instances of the belt failing past the interval, but
>>very few within the interval.

>
>I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
>legend you hear on the Internet.


Honda timing belts don't fail that often because, absent regular maintenance,
the water pump fails first, then the timing belt gets replaced along
with it.
 




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