Battery cable came off!

"AZ Nomad" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:40:44 -0700, jrk > wrote:
>
>
>
>>"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
>>news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no...
>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>
>>> Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. Batteries
>>> /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is not storing
>>> energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the checmical reaction.
>
>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>
>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of nothing?
>
> Capacitors are electrostatic while batteries are electrochemical.
> A capacitor capable of storing the energy within a car battery and power
> capability needed to start a car would be the size of a double long semi.

True, but nobody is suggesting that you start your car with a capacitor. At
issue was the batteries ability to absorb spikes from the alternator. Given
that, batteries do have capacitance. I don't know how much it should be to
be effective though, but its there.

I feel like Kerry... "What I meant to say is, 'Uh, the battery is
nothing more than THE EQUIVALENT of a large capacitor.'"

I think that it's time for a belt of Pinch!

JT




Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> Matt Ion > wrote in
> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no:
>
> > Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> >> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
> >
> > Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
> > Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
> > not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
> > checmical reaction.
> >
>
> The plates of a battery have capacitance.
> They are charged by the chemical reaction.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
> Matt Ion > wrote in
> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no:
>
> > Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> >> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
> >
> > Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
> > Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
> > not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
> > checmical reaction.
> >
>
> The plates of a battery have capacitance.
> They are charged by the chemical reaction.

A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words,
it's a very stout capacitor..
MK

Jim Yanik wrote:
> Matt Ion > wrote in
> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no:
>
> > Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> >> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
> >
> > Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
> > Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
> > not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
> > checmical reaction.
> >
>
> The plates of a battery have capacitance.
> They are charged by the chemical reaction.

A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words,
it's a very stout capacitor..
MK

jrk wrote:
> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no...
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>
>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. Batteries
>>/create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is not storing
>>energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the checmical reaction.
>
>
> Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?

Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough to
consider them functional "capacitors" though.

> Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
> suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of nothing?

Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy. That's generated out of a
chemical reaction.

wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>>Matt Ion > wrote in
>>news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no:
>>
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>
>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>checmical reaction.
>>>
>>
>>The plates of a battery have capacitance.
>>They are charged by the chemical reaction.
>
>
> A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words,
> it's a very stout capacitor..

Not even close. The smaller the plates of a capacitor, the less the
capacitance. The further apart they are, the less the capacitance. Lead-acid
battery plates are EXTREMELY small and EXTREMELY far apart compared to a true
capacitor's.

If you were to drain the water from a battery and measure the capacitance, I
suspect you'd find it in the low microfarads, if not picofarads.

Tegger wrote:
> Matt Ion > wrote in
> news:P8fgh.485006$R63.220768@pd7urf1no:
>
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Ion wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Technically yes, but both smooth voltage..
>>
>>Batteries do, to a degree. That's not what they're designed for
>>though.
>>
>
>
>
> But it's one of the things they're *used* for.
>
> Do you want to email Bill Darden and tell him he's wrong?

I didn't say he was wrong.

Matt Ion > wrote in
news:lQygh.485570$5R2.202156@pd7urf3no:

> jrk wrote:
>> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
>> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no...
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>
>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>checmical reaction.
>>
>>
>> Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>
> Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
> to consider them functional "capacitors" though.

I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
battery model definitely has capacitance.
Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
capacitor.
>
>> Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>> suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>> nothing?
>
> Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.

yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?


> That's generated
> out of a chemical reaction.
>

differing from electric charges generated by friction;static electricity.
They both are ELECTRIC charges,though.Both are electric current,too.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:

>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>
>>>
>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>
>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
>>to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>
>
> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
> a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance are needed.
Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced traces on the
circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network cables, the
inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into account.

That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most cases the
inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than the capacitance in
a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real use.

> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
> battery model definitely has capacitance.
> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
> capacitor.

Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But that's
true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old carbon-based
flashlight batteries.

>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>nothing?
>>
>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>
>
> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?

They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the electrical
(kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical reaction; the electrical
energy is converted to chemical (potential) energy. When not charging, the
inverse chemical reaction converts chemical energy back to electrical energy.

In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity (as opposed
to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's merely converting one form
of energy to another.

Matt Ion > wrote in
news:AxBgh.485714$5R2.255447@pd7urf3no:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery
>>>>>is not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>>
>>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not
>>>enough to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>>
>>
>> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic
>> circuit for a capacitor,by DESIGN.
>
> Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance
> are needed.
> Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced
> traces on the
> circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network
> cables, the inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into
> account.
>
> That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most
> cases the inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than
> the capacitance in a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real
> use.
>
>> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided
>> design,the battery model definitely has capacitance.
>> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
>> capacitor.
>
> Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But
> that's true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old
> carbon-based flashlight batteries.
>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>>nothing?
>>>
>>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>>
>>
>> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?
>
> They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the
> electrical (kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical
> reaction; the electrical energy is converted to chemical (potential)
> energy. When not charging, the inverse chemical reaction converts
> chemical energy back to electrical energy.
>
> In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity
> (as opposed to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's
> merely converting one form of energy to another.
>

When you DRAW current from a battery,how does the chemistry knows to start
converting chemicals to electric current?
Where does that initial current come from?


Simple,the *charge on the plates* decreases and the chemical reaction adds
more electrons to fill the depletion of the plates charge.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net