accord wheel alignment readout

just got a wheel alignment done on my 99 accord (64K miles) at midas...
looking at the readout i don't see a whole lot of adjustments made
(for eg caster L/R, sai, curve toein etc)..
some of the numbers seem worse than before (camber L/R front/rear).
i guess only toe looks to be improved..
my questions to the folks in-the-know-
1. what do you make of the read outs..
2. does it indicate the best possible adjustments..
3. finally are the alignment results objective or subjective.. if i
took the same car to a different shop would i get similar results..
4. now that the car is aligned, if i were to take it to another shop
would they come back saying nothing needs to be done?
too many questions, hope someone can shed some light on this..
thanks!

front
measured database adjusted
caster left 2.82 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.86
right 2.11 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.13
sai left 7.96 n/a 7.96
right 6.44 n/a 6.44
curve left 0.3 n/a 0.3
toein right 0.5 n/a 0.5
camber left -0.1 -1.00/0.00/1.00 -0.25
angle right 0.84 -1.00/0.00/1.00 0.92
partial left -0.09 n/a 0.01
toe right 0.01 n/a 0.00
total toe -0.08 -0.04/0.00/0.04 0.01
set-back -0.11 n/a -0.09

rear
camber left -1.22 -1.50/0.50/1.50 -1.35
angle right 0.33 -1.50/0.50/1.50 0.39
partial left -0.06 n/a 0.01
toe right -0.23 n/a 0.00
totaltoe -0.29 -0.00/0.01/0.03 0.01
thrust angle 0.29 n/a 0.01
set-back -0.12 n/a -0.15

Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect, some
specs are not adjustable.
"blade" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> just got a wheel alignment done on my 99 accord (64K miles) at midas...
> looking at the readout i don't see a whole lot of adjustments made
> (for eg caster L/R, sai, curve toein etc)..
> some of the numbers seem worse than before (camber L/R front/rear).
> i guess only toe looks to be improved..
> my questions to the folks in-the-know-
> 1. what do you make of the read outs..
> 2. does it indicate the best possible adjustments..
> 3. finally are the alignment results objective or subjective.. if i
> took the same car to a different shop would i get similar results..
> 4. now that the car is aligned, if i were to take it to another shop
> would they come back saying nothing needs to be done?
> too many questions, hope someone can shed some light on this..
> thanks!
>
> front
> measured database adjusted
> caster left 2.82 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.86
> right 2.11 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.13
> sai left 7.96 n/a 7.96
> right 6.44 n/a 6.44
> curve left 0.3 n/a 0.3
> toein right 0.5 n/a 0.5
> camber left -0.1 -1.00/0.00/1.00 -0.25
> angle right 0.84 -1.00/0.00/1.00 0.92
> partial left -0.09 n/a 0.01
> toe right 0.01 n/a 0.00
> total toe -0.08 -0.04/0.00/0.04 0.01
> set-back -0.11 n/a -0.09
>
> rear
> camber left -1.22 -1.50/0.50/1.50 -1.35
> angle right 0.33 -1.50/0.50/1.50 0.39
> partial left -0.06 n/a 0.01
> toe right -0.23 n/a 0.00
> totaltoe -0.29 -0.00/0.01/0.03 0.01
> thrust angle 0.29 n/a 0.01
> set-back -0.12 n/a -0.15
>



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I am trying to understand what was done?
I don't enough to say if they got it right or not..
Just comparing the before and after readings with the database, I
can't see improvements except for the Toe..
Front:
Caster: worse than before (not close to the mid-point before or after)
SAI:no change (no reference)
Curve toein: no change (no reference)
Camber: worse than before (the right reading is even closer to
the top of the range after than before)
Toe: improved
Setback: ??
Rear:
Caster: worse than before (left reading closer to the top of the
range after than before)
Toe: improved
Thrust angle & setback: ??
So in summary only the toe has been improved.. I had wear on the
outside of one tire, and the inside of another.. Does this explain it?
I am trying to understand what was improved and how?

Shep wrote:
> Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect, some
> specs are not adjustable.

> >
> > front
> > measured database adjusted
> > caster left 2.82 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.86
> > right 2.11 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.13
> > sai left 7.96 n/a 7.96
> > right 6.44 n/a 6.44
> > curve left 0.3 n/a 0.3
> > toein right 0.5 n/a 0.5
> > camber left -0.1 -1.00/0.00/1.00 -0.25
> > angle right 0.84 -1.00/0.00/1.00 0.92
> > partial left -0.09 n/a 0.01
> > toe right 0.01 n/a 0.00
> > total toe -0.08 -0.04/0.00/0.04 0.01
> > set-back -0.11 n/a -0.09
> >
> > rear
> > camber left -1.22 -1.50/0.50/1.50 -1.35
> > angle right 0.33 -1.50/0.50/1.50 0.39
> > partial left -0.06 n/a 0.01
> > toe right -0.23 n/a 0.00
> > totaltoe -0.29 -0.00/0.01/0.03 0.01
> > thrust angle 0.29 n/a 0.01
> > set-back -0.12 n/a -0.15

The n/a's are just specs, not adjustable, only the toe was way out. the
difference between the lt and rt camber, ft and rear is a little too high.
could cause a pull.
"blade" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am trying to understand what was done?
> I don't enough to say if they got it right or not..
> Just comparing the before and after readings with the database, I
> can't see improvements except for the Toe..
> Front:
> Caster: worse than before (not close to the mid-point before or after)
> SAI:no change (no reference)
> Curve toein: no change (no reference)
> Camber: worse than before (the right reading is even closer to
> the top of the range after than before)
> Toe: improved
> Setback: ??
> Rear:
> Caster: worse than before (left reading closer to the top of the
> range after than before)
> Toe: improved
> Thrust angle & setback: ??
> So in summary only the toe has been improved.. I had wear on the
> outside of one tire, and the inside of another.. Does this explain it?
> I am trying to understand what was improved and how?
>
> Shep wrote:
>> Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect,
>> some
>> specs are not adjustable.
>
>> >
>> > front
>> > measured database adjusted
>> > caster left 2.82 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.86
>> > right 2.11 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.13
>> > sai left 7.96 n/a 7.96
>> > right 6.44 n/a 6.44
>> > curve left 0.3 n/a 0.3
>> > toein right 0.5 n/a 0.5
>> > camber left -0.1 -1.00/0.00/1.00 -0.25
>> > angle right 0.84 -1.00/0.00/1.00 0.92
>> > partial left -0.09 n/a 0.01
>> > toe right 0.01 n/a 0.00
>> > total toe -0.08 -0.04/0.00/0.04 0.01
>> > set-back -0.11 n/a -0.09
>> >
>> > rear
>> > camber left -1.22 -1.50/0.50/1.50 -1.35
>> > angle right 0.33 -1.50/0.50/1.50 0.39
>> > partial left -0.06 n/a 0.01
>> > toe right -0.23 n/a 0.00
>> > totaltoe -0.29 -0.00/0.01/0.03 0.01
>> > thrust angle 0.29 n/a 0.01
>> > set-back -0.12 n/a -0.15
>



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"Shep" > wrote in
:

> Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect,
> some specs are not adjustable.



The only adjustment on the '99 Accord is toe. If you want to adjust
anything else, you need to install aftermarket suspension parts.

Also, as the bushings begin to sag from age, camber tends to increase.


--
TeGGeR®

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:59:48 +0000 (UTC), "TeGGeR®"
> wrote:

>"Shep" > wrote in
:
>
>> Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect,
>> some specs are not adjustable.
>
>
>
>The only adjustment on the '99 Accord is toe. If you want to adjust
>anything else, you need to install aftermarket suspension parts.

Or replace bent parts or bend something.

In terms of tire wear toe is everything. Caster and camber will not
do much to tire wear at all unless wildly off. Caster balance will
have an effect on pull. If wildly wrong on both sides caster will
change handling characteristics. Camber hardly makes a rat's ass with
radial tires even if wildly wrong -- although this varies with tire
profile etc. Wear on one side of the tire only that is blamed on
camber usually proves to be toe wear. Most cases of pull blamed on
alignment prove to be tire issues. The alignment shop I sublet to
routinely reports that the car pulled when they finished their
alignment and road-tested it. They then move the tires around to
prove that the pull moves with the tires and is not alignment-induced.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

















Don
www.donsautomotive.com

>Also, as the bushings begin to sag from age, camber tends to increase.

Toe does cause excessive wear, and is usually accompanied by feathering of
the tread in the affected area. But don't discount the effect of negative
camber, especially on a strut/lower-BJ system. I've seen plenty of non-
lowered Hondas only 0.5 degrees out of spec with bald inner tread and 6/32's
of outer tread.

J

Don wrote:
>>> Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect,
>>> some specs are not adjustable.
>>
>>The only adjustment on the '99 Accord is toe. If you want to adjust
>>anything else, you need to install aftermarket suspension parts.
>
>Or replace bent parts or bend something.
>
>In terms of tire wear toe is everything. Caster and camber will not
>do much to tire wear at all unless wildly off. Caster balance will
>have an effect on pull. If wildly wrong on both sides caster will
>change handling characteristics. Camber hardly makes a rat's ass with
>radial tires even if wildly wrong -- although this varies with tire
>profile etc. Wear on one side of the tire only that is blamed on
>camber usually proves to be toe wear. Most cases of pull blamed on
>alignment prove to be tire issues. The alignment shop I sublet to
>routinely reports that the car pulled when they finished their
>alignment and road-tested it. They then move the tires around to
>prove that the pull moves with the tires and is not alignment-induced.
>
>Don
>www.donsautomotive.com
>
>Don
>www.donsautomotive.com
>
>>Also, as the bushings begin to sag from age, camber tends to increase.

Don wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:59:48 +0000 (UTC), "TeGGeR®"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Shep" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect,
>>> some specs are not adjustable.
>>
>>
>> The only adjustment on the '99 Accord is toe. If you want to adjust
>> anything else, you need to install aftermarket suspension parts.
>
> Or replace bent parts or bend something.
>
> In terms of tire wear toe is everything. Caster and camber will not
> do much to tire wear at all unless wildly off. Caster balance will
> have an effect on pull. If wildly wrong on both sides caster will
> change handling characteristics. Camber hardly makes a rat's ass with
> radial tires even if wildly wrong -- although this varies with tire
> profile etc. Wear on one side of the tire only that is blamed on
> camber usually proves to be toe wear. Most cases of pull blamed on
> alignment prove to be tire issues. The alignment shop I sublet to
> routinely reports that the car pulled when they finished their
> alignment and road-tested it. They then move the tires around to
> prove that the pull moves with the tires and is not alignment-induced.

it's true about tires affecting pull - i've had that experience
recently. bought a cheap set of tires a while back and am now
regretting it for exactly those reasons.

otoh, it's also [unfortunately] true that many alignment shops are not
very good at their job. one place i used to live near, i'd routinely
have to go back 2 or 3 times to make sure rear alignment on a civic was
done right. "it's because you've got a bent wheel" doesn't cut it on a
rim that's straight to within 0.2mm. finally, when it becomes clear
that the customer won't accept b.s., they'll have the old dog do the job
and magically, it gets done right...

>
> Don
> www.donsautomotive.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don
> www.donsautomotive.com
>
>> Also, as the bushings begin to sag from age, camber tends to increase.
>

if the camber on the left wheel is -ve and on the right wheel is +ve
(and close to the top of the range) then the left wheel is leaning on
its outer edge as is the right wheel..
how can this not be a cause of the tire wearing off unevenly?
in my case both the front and rear left and right tires has this..
as regards caster, it went 2.82->2.86 on the left and
2.11->2.13 on the right.. maybe it helps but its not a big
adjustment considering the range 1.80/2.80/3.80...
btw, the reason i went to the alignment shop is i got new tires
installed. the tire shop looked at my old tires and saw wear on the
outside of the front/rear left.. only the rear right looked ok..
i wish i had some snaps of those, but oh well...
bottomline: i would like to go back to midas and ask them to
look at the caster.. but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..

Don wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:59:48 +0000 (UTC), "TeGGeR®"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Shep" > wrote in
> :
> >
> >> Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect,
> >> some specs are not adjustable.
> >
> >
> >
> >The only adjustment on the '99 Accord is toe. If you want to adjust
> >anything else, you need to install aftermarket suspension parts.
>
> Or replace bent parts or bend something.
>
> In terms of tire wear toe is everything. Caster and camber will not
> do much to tire wear at all unless wildly off. Caster balance will
> have an effect on pull. If wildly wrong on both sides caster will
> change handling characteristics. Camber hardly makes a rat's ass with
> radial tires even if wildly wrong -- although this varies with tire
> profile etc. Wear on one side of the tire only that is blamed on
> camber usually proves to be toe wear. Most cases of pull blamed on
> alignment prove to be tire issues. The alignment shop I sublet to
> routinely reports that the car pulled when they finished their
> alignment and road-tested it. They then move the tires around to
> prove that the pull moves with the tires and is not alignment-induced.
>
> Don

blade wrote:
<snip>
> but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
> adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
> toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..

really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from factory?
and why would they need it?