Tegger's new cat

A long time ago (in Internet terms) I posted saying my cat was rusty and I
needed a new one.

Well here it is.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/new_cat.jpg

Ugly bugger, isn't it? It's a Walker. And I'm not impressed.

My original rusty cat (with almost 300K on it) was still hotter on output
than input at extended idle when measured with an infrared thermometer.
This thing is COOLER on output at extended idle. Bad, BAD sign. It /is/
about 100 degrees hotter on output after extensive driving though, so I
know just what to do come smog-check time...

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
> A long time ago (in Internet terms) I posted saying my cat was rusty and I
> needed a new one.
>
> Well here it is.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/new_cat.jpg
>
> Ugly bugger, isn't it? It's a Walker. And I'm not impressed.
>
> My original rusty cat (with almost 300K on it) was still hotter on output
> than input at extended idle when measured with an infrared thermometer.
> This thing is COOLER on output at extended idle. Bad, BAD sign. It /is/
> about 100 degrees hotter on output after extensive driving though, so I
> know just what to do come smog-check time...
>



There were some "high flow" cats on ebay within the last four to five
weeks which were purported to be exact OEM fits. Around $90 IIRC which
would put them in the reasonable category.

Am I glad that I don't have to put up with that crap!

JT

Grumpy AuContraire > wrote in
:

>
>
> Tegger wrote:
>> A long time ago (in Internet terms) I posted saying my cat was rusty
>> and I needed a new one.
>>
>> Well here it is.
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/new_cat.jpg
>>
>> Ugly bugger, isn't it? It's a Walker. And I'm not impressed.
>>
>> My original rusty cat (with almost 300K on it) was still hotter on
>> output than input at extended idle when measured with an infrared
>> thermometer. This thing is COOLER on output at extended idle. Bad,
>> BAD sign. It /is/ about 100 degrees hotter on output after extensive
>> driving though, so I know just what to do come smog-check time...
>>
>
>
>
> There were some "high flow" cats on ebay within the last four to five
> weeks which were purported to be exact OEM fits. Around $90 IIRC
> which would put them in the reasonable category.


Yeah, I checked out quite a few of those. They were ALL complete liar
aftermarket ripoffs with ****ty quality. Wouldn't expect anything better
out of eBay, actually.

"exact OEM fit" is code for "aftermarket crap that was made to sort-of be
kinda close to the proper fit and quality but don't actually expect even
that when you're paying less than 1/10 of OEM price."

Beware of products sold on eBay unless you cen verify in writing that they
are actually OEM. Not "OEM spec", not "OEM quality", not "exact OEM fit",
but actual OEM Honda. If the part is not actual OEM Honda with a Honda part
number, it's ****.

eBay is a dangerous place to buy car parts from.



>
> Am I glad that I don't have to put up with that crap!
>


Wish I didn't, believe me. Until the current Communist premier (governor)
of my province, I could have looked forward to being smog test-free next
year. Not any more! The new Communist premier changed the laws to make my
car subject to smog checks in perpetuity.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Coincidentally about three weeks ago my 1991 Honda Civic
(manual tranny) failed the NOx part of my local emissions
test. It failed the NOx by being 2.4% higher than the
allowed limit. From googling, the most likely culprits we

1.
The EGR system. (My Civic does not come with an EGR system.)

2.
Carbon deposits in cylinders, especially for older, high
mileage cars. (Solution: The beamer's and others' Italian
tuneup. Ran at high speed on long, steep hill for about an
hour. Revved some to red line.)

3.
Incorrect timing. (I check this often. It is fine.)

4.
Speculation by me: The distributor housing was filthy and so
the sensors were not working optimally, messing up the
timing, fuel mileage and emissions. (I wiped out the housing
and blew compressed air in to get rid of dust. I base this
theory on getting a new distributor housing in 2003. I also
put in a new PCV valve in 2003 and another new one a few
months ago. The fuel mileage shot up in 2003 and subsequent
years, but then went down again this past year.)

5.
Bad catalytic converter (though not excusing what caused it
to go bad.) (I replaced it with a Magnaflow direct fit (so
OEM flange connections) converter. I bought it online from
dotcomparts.com . It cost about $94. It is not "high flow."
It fit fine. I bought the inlet and outlet gaskets on the
net, too.)

6.
Car not warmed up enough at time of test. (I thought this
might have been the problem until I had the second emissions
test done. At the first emissions test, the guys took a long
time getting the numbers. The guys seemed studious about it.
With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, now I think they were
trying to get my cat converter etc. hot enough so my car
would pass, and they almost did. At the re-test, the guys
took like 30 seconds to get the numbers. It was way faster
getting in and out of the test facility.)

My Civic's fuel mileage declined about 10% this past year. I
have been troubleshooting the fuel mileage the last several
months, to no avail except I thought maybe the ethanol gas
used where I am was to blame.

After all of the above, and after three tanks of gas, my
Miles per Gallon is back up to 40 or so around town, 42-44
on the highway, even with ethanol gas. Happily, I passed the
emissions test with flying colors.

So was the problem most likely a clogged catalytic
converter? If so, how did it get clogged? I can say that,
upon visual inspection, the new cat was much easier to look
through than the old one. But cats are not supposed to get
blocked, right, unless one is using bad gas or is not
maintaining the engine well? Typically web sites on cats say
they last the life of the car So I take this to mean they
will not last forever, but they should last way long. Is 17
years beyond 'way long'?

At any rate, I will continue to watch the mileage and see
what happens.

I am not sweating the aftermarket converter. Chatter at
honda-tech.com suggests my cheap-o aftermarket may not last
as long as OEM, but it should be fine. It is easy to
replace. I can buy four aftermarket cats for one OEM cat, so
I think it is worth the gamble.

I will watch for your updates on how your car does when its
emissions are checked, Tegger.

"Tegger" > wrote
>A long time ago (in Internet terms) I posted saying my cat
>was rusty and I
> needed a new one.
>
> Well here it is.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/new_cat.jpg
>
> Ugly bugger, isn't it? It's a Walker. And I'm not
> impressed.
>
> My original rusty cat (with almost 300K on it) was still
> hotter on output
> than input at extended idle when measured with an infrared
> thermometer.
> This thing is COOLER on output at extended idle. Bad, BAD
> sign. It /is/
> about 100 degrees hotter on output after extensive driving
> though, so I
> know just what to do come smog-check time...

"Elle" > wrote in news:sdyzk.271$PS3.77
@newsfe06.iad:

> Coincidentally about three weeks ago my 1991 Honda Civic
> (manual tranny) failed the NOx part of my local emissions
> test. It failed the NOx by being 2.4% higher than the
> allowed limit. From googling, the most likely culprits we



One more possible culprit: A glitch at the emissions station. This is
why I keep track of our cars' emissions results, so I can spot any
trends.

Both of our vehicles (and a few of acquaintances of mine) have had years
where there was an unaccountable spike in NO, a spike that ended up not
being repeated ever again. My general advice to people in this situation
is to do nothing but book another test at a later date. If it fails the
second test with similar numbers, then you start troubleshooting.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/...emissions.html
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/...emissions.html
The year the Tercel had its spike, it would actually have failed the
test. The only reason it passed was because, for some odd reason, the
car had been placed into a lighter weight category, which entitled it to
higher permissible emissions. The very next time the numbers were back
to normal, but the car is still in that new lighter weight class..



<snip>

>
> So was the problem most likely a clogged catalytic
> converter? If so, how did it get clogged?




More likely one that had lost much of its surface area (known as
"sintering"). Apparently that's the most common reason cats fail, and
it's due to inadequate ignition maintenance.

A clogged cat is due to ignition maintenance problems as well as leaking
valve guide oil seals (the puff of smoke on startup). But when this
happens you will suffer loss of power and poor mileage in addition to
higher emissions. In other words, you'll be able to visually see the
clogging, and it won't be a slight neckdown either.

One of my sisters once had a Mazda GLC that had a clogged cat. The front
end looked like somebody had poured oily sand into it. It was basically
plugged solid except for a ring around the perimeter of the element. It
was that ring of open pores that allowed the car to idle and run at all
(and poorly).



> I can say that,
> upon visual inspection, the new cat was much easier to look
> through than the old one. But cats are not supposed to get
> blocked, right, unless one is using bad gas or is not
> maintaining the engine well? Typically web sites on cats say
> they last the life of the car So I take this to mean they
> will not last forever, but they should last way long. Is 17
> years beyond 'way long'?



The "last forever" thing is for OEM cats. Automakers are required by US
law to warrant cats for at least 8 years and 80K miles. Somebody pays
for that reliability, and that's you, in the purchase cost of OEM.

My own OEM cat was still functional after 17 years and 300,000 miles.
That should tell you something right there about why they cost $1100
new.

Aftermarket is not bound to any such warranty, so they can build as
cheaply as they can get away with.


>
> At any rate, I will continue to watch the mileage and see
> what happens.
>
> I am not sweating the aftermarket converter. Chatter at
> honda-tech.com suggests my cheap-o aftermarket may not last
> as long as OEM, but it should be fine. It is easy to
> replace. I can buy four aftermarket cats for one OEM cat, so
> I think it is worth the gamble.
>
> I will watch for your updates on how your car does when its
> emissions are checked, Tegger.


That will be next spring. I usually go in May.

I've had a very knowledgeable mechanic tell me aftermarket cats are
usually good for about two years (which is one smog test, for me). We'll
see.




--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote
> My general advice to people in this situation
> is to do nothing but book another test at a later date. If
> it fails the
> second test with similar numbers, then you start
> troubleshooting.

At around $30 per emissions test (plus one free retest),
plus the hassle of having to use temporary registrations, I
felt putting a new cat converter on and doing the other
things I listed for a total of about $105 was the better
gamble.

> That should tell you something right there about why they
> cost $1100
> new.

BKHondaparts.com sells a new OEM cat for my Civic for $465.

"Elle" > wrote in news:WKVzk.3394$PS3.1073
@newsfe06.iad:

> "Tegger" > wrote
>> My general advice to people in this situation
>> is to do nothing but book another test at a later date. If
>> it fails the
>> second test with similar numbers, then you start
>> troubleshooting.
>
> At around $30 per emissions test (plus one free retest),
> plus the hassle of having to use temporary registrations, I
> felt putting a new cat converter on and doing the other
> things I listed for a total of about $105 was the better
> gamble.
>
>> That should tell you something right there about why they
>> cost $1100
>> new.
>
> BKHondaparts.com sells a new OEM cat for my Civic for $465.
>
>
>


You're lucky! And even luckier that they're still selling cats for your
'91!

My '91 'Teg's cats were $1100 a few years ago when still made of platinum,
palladium and rhodium, but are now made of pure unobtainium and not
available at any price. :^(

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote
> You're lucky! And even luckier that they're still selling
> cats for your
> '91!

I am indeed getting worried about this. Some online OEM
sites do not sell all the parts for my 91. But my old Honda
has now returned to fantastic fuel mileage rates, so
forward.

My new aftermarket cat should be an interesting experience.
I do not really see reports of the things failing quickly.
Either way, a two year life is reasonable for what I paid
for it.

My 91 did not have holes rusted in it the way your 91's did,
maybe because about half of my 91 Civic's life was in the
mid-U.S., with less snow and salt.

Did you try to peer through your old cat? One of the UK
site's manuals says this is a valid way to inspect the
thing.

> My '91 'Teg's cats were $1100 a few years ago when still
> made of platinum,
> palladium and rhodium, but are now made of pure
> unobtainium and not
> available at any price. :^(

Ha, I trust "unobtainium" has a Tegger copyright. :-)

"Elle" > wrote in news:crWzk.11671$rV4.3648
@newsfe03.iad:

> "Tegger" > wrote
>> You're lucky! And even luckier that they're still selling
>> cats for your
>> '91!
>
> I am indeed getting worried about this. Some online OEM
> sites do not sell all the parts for my 91. But my old Honda
> has now returned to fantastic fuel mileage rates, so
> forward.
>
> My new aftermarket cat should be an interesting experience.
> I do not really see reports of the things failing quickly.
> Either way, a two year life is reasonable for what I paid
> for it.


That's one way to look at it, and it seems to be how most people see it.

My approach is that I'd prefer to pay more up front, then never have to
look at the problem again, ever. In that, I seem to be very much in the
minority, otherwise there would be suppliers willing to give that to me.


>
> My 91 did not have holes rusted in it the way your 91's did,
> maybe because about half of my 91 Civic's life was in the
> mid-U.S., with less snow and salt.



That's likely. The North-east is absolutely devastating to cars.


>
> Did you try to peer through your old cat? One of the UK
> site's manuals says this is a valid way to inspect the
> thing.



I didn't get a chance. By the time I went to pick up my car from the
garage the old cat had been sold and delivered. Too bad, too. I'd only
ever seen it from the rear, up to that point. And from there it looked
brand-new.



>
>> My '91 'Teg's cats were $1100 a few years ago when still
>> made of platinum,
>> palladium and rhodium, but are now made of pure
>> unobtainium and not
>> available at any price. :^(
>
> Ha, I trust "unobtainium" has a Tegger copyright. :-)
>


I wish. I read that term somewhere years ago, so I can't claim coinage
of it.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote
> My approach is that I'd prefer to pay more up front, then
> never have to
> look at the problem again, ever. In that, I seem to be
> very much in the
> minority, otherwise there would be suppliers willing to
> give that to me.

If my Civic were younger, then I would go your route. I am
sold on OEM for most everything, based on all the chatter
here. But given how old my Civic is, I figure it is possible
that some major engine problem could arise at any moment.
Hence these days I usually shop for car parts with the
attitude that "my car has only a few more years left in it,
anyway, so do not plow too much money into it."

Granted I have been saying this for five years now. :-)

I see your thread on replacing your suspension springs. My
old 91 Civic handles so much better than the second 93 Civic
I now also own (bought used in July; I am the second owner).
I think it's because of all that control arm work I did plus
putting new springs in the front.

Other comments noted.