2004 Accord coupe: Proper charging voltage

Pszemol wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> news
>>> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel
>>> applications
>>> where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed.
>>> Compare wire fence, steel tube, angle iron or I-beams.
>>> Similar situation i with tin-plating. It provides sacrificial protection
>>> for copper, nickel and other non-ferrous metals, but not for steel.
>>>
>>> Product does not need to be submersed in water for this principle
>>> to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than
>>> sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine...
>>
>> but that's a zinc layer [galvanizing or sherardizing] - different
>> principle! a sacrificial anode will protect naked steel -
>> sherardizing or galvanizing are simply plating processes.
>
> Same principle, different implementation of the principle.
> When it is not practical to use galvanized steel you can
> use sacrificial anode made with chunk of zinc - when this
> is used up you can replace anode and continue protection.

sorry, that's not the complete story. in order for that sacrificial
anode to protect, there has to be a direct electrolyte-born current path
between the anode and the cathode. if the electrolyte is not in full
contact with the cathode, the cathode cannot be protected, it's still
subject to corrosion. and the only direct electrical path available is
with electrolyte immersion. patches of discontinuous electrolyte [rain
splashes] are not electrically connected with each other and thus there
is no protection current.


> With products made of the galvanized steel, the principle
> is the same, there are just practical differences, like
> you cannot "replace" sacrificial anode because it is
> under the paint, covering your whole care for example.
> Both work the same way.
>
>>> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?
>>
>> i believe parts of it use sherardized steel, yes.
>
> Parts? Not all panels?

the bits that get salted the most. not much point for the roof.

"jim beam" > wrote in message t...
> Pszemol wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> news
>>>> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel
>>>> applications
>>>> where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed.
>>>> Compare wire fence, steel tube, angle iron or I-beams.
>>>> Similar situation i with tin-plating. It provides sacrificial protection
>>>> for copper, nickel and other non-ferrous metals, but not for steel.
>>>>
>>>> Product does not need to be submersed in water for this principle
>>>> to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than
>>>> sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine...
>>>
>>> but that's a zinc layer [galvanizing or sherardizing] - different
>>> principle! a sacrificial anode will protect naked steel -
>>> sherardizing or galvanizing are simply plating processes.
>>
>> Same principle, different implementation of the principle.
>> When it is not practical to use galvanized steel you can
>> use sacrificial anode made with chunk of zinc - when this
>> is used up you can replace anode and continue protection.
>
> sorry, that's not the complete story. in order for that sacrificial
> anode to protect, there has to be a direct electrolyte-born current path
> between the anode and the cathode. if the electrolyte is not in full
> contact with the cathode, the cathode cannot be protected, it's still
> subject to corrosion. and the only direct electrical path available is
> with electrolyte immersion. patches of discontinuous electrolyte [rain
> splashes] are not electrically connected with each other and thus there
> is no protection current.
>
>
>> With products made of the galvanized steel, the principle
>> is the same, there are just practical differences, like
>> you cannot "replace" sacrificial anode because it is
>> under the paint, covering your whole care for example.
>> Both work the same way.

Jim, in case of the galvanized steel you have direct electrical
path available between two metals (steel and zinc) in every
place where you have a pore in your body paint and a rain drop...
If you have car made of galvanized steel, whole car submersion
in electrolite is not required for the zinc to work.

Read my other post in this thread and you will understand that
naked steel + zinc anode attached and galvanizing are simply two
implementations of THE SAME electro-chemical principle.

"Pszemol" > wrote in
:


>
> Read my other post in this thread and you will understand that
> naked steel + zinc anode attached and galvanizing are simply two
> implementations of THE SAME electro-chemical principle.
>


They might be, but they don't operate in the same environments.

Imagine a car door. There is water in the bottom of the door, but not
anywhere on the vertical walls of the door. There is no connection between
your chunk of zinc and the bottom of the door. The door will rust no matter
what.

Zinc sheet covering the inside of the door is in direct contact with the
water in the door bottom. It will function until the zinc is used up.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Pszemol wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Pszemol wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> news >>>>> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel
>>>>> applications
>>>>> where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed.
>>>>> Compare wire fence, steel tube, angle iron or I-beams.
>>>>> Similar situation i with tin-plating. It provides sacrificial
>>>>> protection
>>>>> for copper, nickel and other non-ferrous metals, but not for steel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Product does not need to be submersed in water for this principle
>>>>> to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than
>>>>> sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine...
>>>>
>>>> but that's a zinc layer [galvanizing or sherardizing] - different
>>>> principle! a sacrificial anode will protect naked steel -
>>>> sherardizing or galvanizing are simply plating processes.
>>>
>>> Same principle, different implementation of the principle.
>>> When it is not practical to use galvanized steel you can
>>> use sacrificial anode made with chunk of zinc - when this
>>> is used up you can replace anode and continue protection.
>>
>> sorry, that's not the complete story. in order for that sacrificial
>> anode to protect, there has to be a direct electrolyte-born current path
>> between the anode and the cathode. if the electrolyte is not in full
>> contact with the cathode, the cathode cannot be protected, it's still
>> subject to corrosion. and the only direct electrical path available is
>> with electrolyte immersion. patches of discontinuous electrolyte [rain
>> splashes] are not electrically connected with each other and thus there
>> is no protection current.
>>
>>
>>> With products made of the galvanized steel, the principle
>>> is the same, there are just practical differences, like
>>> you cannot "replace" sacrificial anode because it is
>>> under the paint, covering your whole care for example.
>>> Both work the same way.
>
> Jim, in case of the galvanized steel you have direct electrical
> path available between two metals (steel and zinc) in every
> place where you have a pore in your body paint and a rain drop...
> If you have car made of galvanized steel, whole car submersion
> in electrolite is not required for the zinc to work.
>
> Read my other post in this thread and you will understand that
> naked steel + zinc anode attached and galvanizing are simply two
> implementations of THE SAME electro-chemical principle.

no, that's not correct. galvanizing or sherardizing are /not/ the same
as sacrificial anodic protection. with the latter, you can have a
huge-ass ship-sized chunk of naked steel, contiguous electrolyte, a
sacrificial anode, and no corrosion in the steel. the anode corrodes
like the blazes. IT DOES NOT WORK if the electrolyte is not contiguous
because the electron flow generated by the anode electrolysis is not
transmitted to the areas not contacted with contiguous electrolyte.

with galvanizing and sherardizing otoh, you have contiguous plating
which protects in /two/ ways. first is [comparatively] passive plating.
second is a localized electrolytic cell disruption. this works with
or without liquid electrolyte.

so, getting back to cars, a lot of modern vehicle body panels are
sherardized, and this gives the passivating protection you're seeking to
establish. but you CANNOT achieve this same effect by bolting a bit of
zinc onto the chassis of a car and have it protect the whole vehicle
unless there is contiguous electrolyte. even in seattle in the depths
of winter rain, they don't have that. and getting back to the op's
doohickey, it's a total waste of money, and designed by someone with
insufficient understanding of corrosion principles.

"Tegger" > wrote in message ...
> They might be, but they don't operate in the same environments.

Same principle does not mean that they will operate
in the same environments. Of course a naked iron boat
with an anode in a form of a chunk of zinc will be
immersed in sea water so there is no need to have
zinc close to every part of iron...

In case of galvanising you have the same electrochemical
process going on but on a micro scale, micro-distances.

> Imagine a car door. There is water in the bottom of the door, but not
> anywhere on the vertical walls of the door. There is no connection between
> your chunk of zinc and the bottom of the door. The door will rust no matter
> what.
>
> Zinc sheet covering the inside of the door is in direct contact with the
> water in the door bottom. It will function until the zinc is used up.

We are discussing a situation where you have a dent in the paint
surface, so there is a gap in the paint seal. Water wets the bare
metal and causes electrolitic link between metals on micropores.
All this apply to galvanized or zinc plated steel panels or
similarly protected suspention parts.

Nowhere in my post I was comenting that their gizmo will work...
I am still interested in how it supposed to work and what is
the principle used there... Why do we need electrical current, etc.
I was comenting galvanized panels as sufficient because working
on the same "Sacrificial zinc anode" principle.

Pszemol wrote:
> "Tegger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> They might be, but they don't operate in the same environments.
>
> Same principle does not mean that they will operate
> in the same environments. Of course a naked iron boat
> with an anode in a form of a chunk of zinc will be
> immersed in sea water so there is no need to have
> zinc close to every part of iron...
>
> In case of galvanising you have the same electrochemical
> process going on but on a micro scale, micro-distances.
>
>> Imagine a car door. There is water in the bottom of the door, but not
>> anywhere on the vertical walls of the door. There is no connection
>> between your chunk of zinc and the bottom of the door. The door will
>> rust no matter what.
>>
>> Zinc sheet covering the inside of the door is in direct contact with
>> the water in the door bottom. It will function until the zinc is used up.
>
> We are discussing a situation where you have a dent in the paint
> surface, so there is a gap in the paint seal. Water wets the bare
> metal and causes electrolitic link between metals on micropores.
> All this apply to galvanized or zinc plated steel panels or
> similarly protected suspention parts.
>
> Nowhere in my post I was comenting that their gizmo will work...
> I am still interested in how it supposed to work and what is
> the principle used there... Why do we need electrical current, etc.
> I was comenting galvanized panels as sufficient because working
> on the same "Sacrificial zinc anode" principle.

zinc plating is /NOT/ sacrificial anode principle!!! it's surface
passivation! no electron flow!

again?

"jim beam" > wrote in message news
> zinc plating is /NOT/ sacrificial anode principle!!! it's surface
> passivation! no electron flow!
>
> again?

It is true, untill the zinc layer is broken... Paint is also
passivation layer, untill the paint is cracked and
metal underneath is exposed to weather elements.
At this moment paint stops working, zinc layer
continues to work on the anode/cathode principle
and will be used up first before steel starts to rust.
That is why zinc plated steel pieces can survive
without corrosion for 70 years - try this with paint! :-)

Couple of quotations from the expert sites as a backup
to my words:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization
Zinc coatings prevent corrosion of the protected metal
by forming a physical barrier, and by acting as a sacrificial
anode if this barrier is damaged.

http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,26,58.cfm#1
1. How does galvanizing protect steel from corrosion?
Zinc metal used in the galvanizing process provides an
impervious barrier between the steel substrate and
corrosive elements in the atmosphere. It does not allow
moisture and corrosive chlorides and sulfides to attack
the steel. Zinc is more importantly anodic to steel -
meaning it will corrode before the steel, until the zinc is
entirely consumed.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-galvanized-steel.htm
Zinc also protects the steel by acting as a "sacrificial layer."
If, for some reason, rust does take hold on the surface
of galvanized steel, the zinc will get corroded first.
This allows the zinc that is spread over the breach or
scratch to prevent rust from reaching the steel.

"jim beam" > wrote in message t...
>> Jim, in case of the galvanized steel you have direct electrical
>> path available between two metals (steel and zinc) in every
>> place where you have a pore in your body paint and a rain drop...
>> If you have car made of galvanized steel, whole car submersion
>> in electrolite is not required for the zinc to work.
>>
>> Read my other post in this thread and you will understand that
>> naked steel + zinc anode attached and galvanizing are simply two
>> implementations of THE SAME electro-chemical principle.
>
> no, that's not correct. galvanizing or sherardizing are /not/ the same
> as sacrificial anodic protection. with the latter, you can have a
> huge-ass ship-sized chunk of naked steel, contiguous electrolyte, a
> sacrificial anode, and no corrosion in the steel. the anode corrodes
> like the blazes. IT DOES NOT WORK if the electrolyte is not contiguous
> because the electron flow generated by the anode electrolysis is not
> transmitted to the areas not contacted with contiguous electrolyte.
>
> with galvanizing and sherardizing otoh, you have contiguous plating
> which protects in /two/ ways. first is [comparatively] passive plating.
> second is a localized electrolytic cell disruption. this works with
> or without liquid electrolyte.

Check my quotations from the other post.
They specificaly use the term "sacrificial anode" in galvanized steel.

> so, getting back to cars, a lot of modern vehicle body panels are
> sherardized, and this gives the passivating protection you're seeking to
> establish. but you CANNOT achieve this same effect by bolting a bit of
> zinc onto the chassis of a car and have it protect the whole vehicle
> unless there is contiguous electrolyte. even in seattle in the depths
> of winter rain, they don't have tha

I have never stated in this discussion that you can achieve the
same by bolting a chunk of zinc to a car... You do not need to
do it. However, if you have zinc plated panels you are protected
by the zinc layer on the same principle.

> and getting back to the op's
> doohickey, it's a total waste of money, and designed by someone
> with insufficient understanding of corrosion principles.

Do you know the design details of this doohickey?