Sebring---- SUDDEN ACCELERATION

Feb. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Ford Motor Co., the world's second- largest
automaker, settled a sudden-acceleration lawsuit today brought by a
Cleveland minister who was left in a coma after his 1987 Crown Victoria
crashed into a neighbor's house.

Attorneys for Leon Manigault, 77, said a defect in his car's electronic
system caused it to speed up uncontrollably after he put it in gear. Ford
and Manigault's family reached a confidential settlement today just before
closing arguments were scheduled in the trial in state court in Cleveland.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...r=news_inde x
Daniel man, just because you have never experienced problems mentioned on
here such as cruise control sudden accel, 85 Turbo vehicle Timing changing
due to improper plugs and all that does not mean it never happens or cant
happen, have an open mind, because it is real pal

Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, Larry Crites wrote:
>
> > My 1991 Dodge Monaco used to do that. The cruise control would just all
of a
> > sudden make the car accelerate.
>
> Not below 30 mph with your foot on the brake and the trans in "Reverse",
> it wouldn't.

>Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It's a scientific principle that
>says the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Now, which is
>simpler? A or B?

>A: Your wife stepped on the wrong pedal.

>B: The cruise control on/off switch, the cruise control "set" switch, the
>brake light and cruise-kill switch, and the SBEC "no cruise control under
>30MPH, and only in the Forward direction" programming all failed at the
>same time, the cruise control engaged and pulled the throttle wide open.

ONCE AGAIN DANIEL STERN RAMBLES ON, YOU ARE SO WRONG PAL ((READ ON )

a.. Oct 4, 1996 : Chrysler disclosed in a letter to the Office of Defects
Investigation that it knew of 98 incidents of unintended acceleration
between 1993 and 1996 involving Cherokees and another 241 involving Grand
Cherokees ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER
a.. A group of independent engineering experts claims to have uncovered a
defect specific in the 1993-96 5.2 litre V8 Grand Cherokee. If cruise
control is left in the ON position a short to ground in the power control
module connector can cause the vehicle's engine to race. The short is said
to be caused by water, moisture etc. getting into the connector and causing
corrosion. ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER : Strategic
Safety. Special investigation Chrysler Cherokee 1998


"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, jonz6 wrote:
>
> > Servo? Yes it has cruise
>
> Ah, right, here we go with the "sudden, full, completely unintended
> activation of the cruise control despite the car being in reverse, below
> the threshhold speed AND the brakes allegedly applied" theory.
>
> Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It's a scientific principle that
> says the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Now, which is
> simpler? A or B?
>
> A: Your wife stepped on the wrong pedal.
>
> B: The cruise control on/off switch, the cruise control "set" switch, the
> brake light and cruise-kill switch, and the SBEC "no cruise control under
> 30MPH, and only in the Forward direction" programming all failed at the
> same time, the cruise control engaged and pulled the throttle wide open.
>
>
>

In article >,
"maxpower" > wrote:

> Daniel man, just because you have never experienced problems mentioned on
> here such as cruise control sudden accel, 85 Turbo vehicle Timing changing
> due to improper plugs and all that does not mean it never happens or cant
> happen, have an open mind, because it is real pal

Two things...

1) An out of court settlement in no way constitutes proof that
what was claimed actually happened.

2) WRT spark plugs, you are actually claiming that if I install
Autolite, NGK, AC Delco or some brand other than Champion spark
plugs in a 1985 ChryCo vehicle with a turbo charger, start the
engine, disconnect the coolant sensor and check the ignition
timing with a stroboscopic timing light, I'll see different
timing setting between the different brands of spark plugs?

In article >,
"maxpower" > wrote:

> ONCE AGAIN DANIEL STERN RAMBLES ON, YOU ARE SO WRONG PAL ((READ ON )
>
> a.. Oct 4, 1996 : Chrysler disclosed in a letter to the Office of Defects
> Investigation that it knew of 98 incidents of unintended acceleration
> between 1993 and 1996 involving Cherokees and another 241 involving Grand
> Cherokees ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER
> a.. A group of independent engineering experts claims to have uncovered a
> defect specific in the 1993-96 5.2 litre V8 Grand Cherokee. If cruise
> control is left in the ON position a short to ground in the power control
> module connector can cause the vehicle's engine to race. The short is said
> to be caused by water, moisture etc. getting into the connector and causing
> corrosion. ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER : Strategic
> Safety. Special investigation Chrysler Cherokee 1998

The service department that you work in must have to give away an
awful lot of free service work if you can't tell the difference
between a 2002 Chrysler Sebring with a 3.0 liter engine and
1993-96 Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees with 5.2 liter engines.

1) An out of court settlement in no way constitutes proof that
what was claimed actually happened.

DONT NEED TO , http://www.antony-anderson.com/cruise/6-freq.htm read on

a.. Oct 4, 1996 : Chrysler disclosed in a letter to the Office of Defects
Investigation that it knew of 98 incidents of unintended acceleration
between 1993 and 1996 involving Cherokees and another 241 involving Grand
Cherokees ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER
a.. A group of independent engineering experts claims to have uncovered a
defect specific in the 1993-96 5.2 litre V8 Grand Cherokee. If cruise
control is left in the ON position a short to ground in the power control
module connector can cause the vehicle's engine to race. The short is said
to be caused by water, moisture etc. getting into the connector and causing
corrosion. ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER : Strategic
Safety. Special investigation Chrysler Cherokee 1998

2) WRT spark plugs, you are actually claiming that if I install
> Autolite, NGK, AC Delco or some brand other than Champion spark
> plugs in a 1985 ChryCo vehicle with a turbo charger, start the
> engine, disconnect the coolant sensor and check the ignition
> timing with a stroboscopic timing light, I'll see different
> timing setting between the different brands of spark plugs?

I AM SAYING. and not sure of all the plugs that were affected but i dont see
many of these vehicles in the shop. But a/c delco and Bosch plugs and some
others would cause the timing to flucuate severly at idle, CUST COMPLAINT
idles very rough, Naturally if you disconnect the coolant sensor it goes
into limp , fan turns on and the timing is back to base timing and you
would get a steady reading. Idle on those vehicles were controlled by
timing, Stern is wrong.. Cuda, the next time you work on one. See it for
your self. You may have already had them in the shop, put a timing lite on
it and watch the mark, with thecoolant sensor connected, then install
champion plugs and put the lite on it and see how stable the mark is, And
then notice how smooth the idle is

"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "maxpower" > wrote:
>
> > Daniel man, just because you have never experienced problems mentioned
on
> > here such as cruise control sudden accel, 85 Turbo vehicle Timing
changing
> > due to improper plugs and all that does not mean it never happens or
cant
> > happen, have an open mind, because it is real pal
>
> Two things...
>
> 1) An out of court settlement in no way constitutes proof that
> what was claimed actually happened.
>
> 2) WRT spark plugs, you are actually claiming that if I install
> Autolite, NGK, AC Delco or some brand other than Champion spark
> plugs in a 1985 ChryCo vehicle with a turbo charger, start the
> engine, disconnect the coolant sensor and check the ignition
> timing with a stroboscopic timing light, I'll see different
> timing setting between the different brands of spark plugs?

OMG are you such the idiot you are, Do you have any common sense what so
ever??
"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "maxpower" > wrote:
>
> > ONCE AGAIN DANIEL STERN RAMBLES ON, YOU ARE SO WRONG PAL ((READ ON )
> >
> > a.. Oct 4, 1996 : Chrysler disclosed in a letter to the Office of
Defects
> > Investigation that it knew of 98 incidents of unintended acceleration
> > between 1993 and 1996 involving Cherokees and another 241 involving
Grand
> > Cherokees ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER
> > a.. A group of independent engineering experts claims to have uncovered
a
> > defect specific in the 1993-96 5.2 litre V8 Grand Cherokee. If cruise
> > control is left in the ON position a short to ground in the power
control
> > module connector can cause the vehicle's engine to race. The short is
said
> > to be caused by water, moisture etc. getting into the connector and
causing
> > corrosion. ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER : Strategic
> > Safety. Special investigation Chrysler Cherokee 1998
>
> The service department that you work in must have to give away an
> awful lot of free service work if you can't tell the difference
> between a 2002 Chrysler Sebring with a 3.0 liter engine and
> 1993-96 Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees with 5.2 liter engines.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, aarcuda69062 wrote, evidently in response to
"maxpower":

> WRT spark plugs, you are actually claiming that if I install Autolite,
> NGK, AC Delco or some brand other than Champion spark plugs in a 1985
> ChryCo vehicle with a turbo charger, start the engine, disconnect the
> coolant sensor and check the ignition timing with a stroboscopic timing
> light, I'll see different timing setting between the different brands of
> spark plugs?

Believe it or don't, he actually "thinks" this. Below are his idiotic,
stupid, ignorant and baseless claims on the topic:

First this:

Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.chrysler
From: "damnnickname" >
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:04:13 -0500
Subject: 85 turbo - coughs on heavy accel load

DO NOT USE PLATINUM PLUGS OR BOSH PLUGS< USE ONLY CHAMPION< i belive they
were rn12yc, some plugs will mess with the timing of the power module and
cause all kinds of idle problems. Almost like it is searching because the
timing is flucuating so bad

===

When called on his idiocy, he responded as followed:

Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.chrysler
From: "maxpower" >
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:05:13 -0500
Subject: 85 turbo - coughs on heavy accel load

Idle was controlled by the timing back then, With autolite/bosh and some
other plugs.I say use Champion because I no that was the only one that I
know didnt create a problem. The Power Module saw the resistors in them
and caused the timing to jump all over, causing extreme idle problems
hesitation problems and more I would bet you are one of those guys that
put everypart on the car untill given up and told your cust to take it to
the dealer... Is that so? The next time you get one of these vehicles, put
a timing lite on it and see for youself, but then again I bet you dont
know how to use one and here once again, you have no clue what you are
talking about

====

So, to answer your question: Yes. In what passes for the brain between
maxpower's ears, the 1985 Chrysler 2-module engine management system was
so advanced that it actually knew the difference between Champion's 10kohm
spark plug resistors and Autolite's 10kohm spark plug resistors and
Bosch's 10kohm spark plug resistors, and if it saw anything other than
Champion spark plugs, it went wild 'n' crazy and threw a timing disco
party. Amazing feats o' magic, eh?

-DS

In article >,
"maxpower" > wrote:

> 1) An out of court settlement in no way constitutes proof that
> what was claimed actually happened.
>
> DONT NEED TO , http://www.antony-anderson.com/cruise/6-freq.htm read on
>
> a.. Oct 4, 1996 : Chrysler disclosed in a letter to the Office of Defects
> Investigation that it knew of 98 incidents of unintended acceleration
> between 1993 and 1996 involving Cherokees and another 241 involving Grand
> Cherokees ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER
> a.. A group of independent engineering experts claims to have uncovered a
> defect specific in the 1993-96 5.2 litre V8 Grand Cherokee. If cruise
> control is left in the ON position a short to ground in the power control
> module connector can cause the vehicle's engine to race. The short is said
> to be caused by water, moisture etc. getting into the connector and causing
> corrosion. ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER : Strategic
> Safety. Special investigation Chrysler Cherokee 1998

Okay, now where is the connection between the Jeeps, Fords,
Buicks and radar guns aimed under the hood cited in your link and
the 2002 Chrysler Sebring?
All you've managed to do Glen is point out that there have been
failures associated with -some- cruise control systems, that does
not mean that all cruise controls or even this cruise control
will behave or -did- behave the same.

Ever do a WOT test on an engine with it in gear with an engine
analyzer connected?
Ever check the stall speed of a torque convertor?

I have, hundreds of times, and not once were the vehicles brakes
incapable of holding the car back.

> 2) WRT spark plugs, you are actually claiming that if I install
> > Autolite, NGK, AC Delco or some brand other than Champion spark
> > plugs in a 1985 ChryCo vehicle with a turbo charger, start the
> > engine, disconnect the coolant sensor and check the ignition
> > timing with a stroboscopic timing light, I'll see different
> > timing setting between the different brands of spark plugs?
>
> I AM SAYING. and not sure of all the plugs that were affected but i dont see
> many of these vehicles in the shop. But a/c delco and Bosch plugs and some
> others would cause the timing to flucuate severly at idle, CUST COMPLAINT
> idles very rough, Naturally if you disconnect the coolant sensor it goes
> into limp , fan turns on and the timing is back to base timing and you
> would get a steady reading.

Whoa, stop right there.
Then the spark plugs per-se are not causing the timing change.
If the plugs don't change the base timing (which you seem to
agree to) then the only thing that can be changing the timing is
a signal sent to the logic module (since disconnecting the
coolant sensor takes the logic module out of the picture), that
signal most likely being from the knock sensor, due to the wrong
heat range spark plug being used, IOWs, the same result would
happen if the wrong heat range Champion spark plug were to be
used, so it is NOT the brand of spark plug that is causing the
problem, it is the implementation of heat ranges, the practice of
part number overlap that is the actual cause.
Specifically; the vehicles in question had the capability to
retard timing for individual cylinders.
Specifically: you claimed that the power module "sees" something
from the plugs in question, yet the power module (for the sake of
this discussion) only switches the coil primary, and whether or
not the coolant sensor connector is connected or not, the power
modules function in this regard does not change.

I can tell you specifically which AC Delco and which Bosch spark
plugs caused the problems that you observed;
Delco: it was the Rapid Fires
Bosch: it was any of their gimmicky crappy platinum plugs.
Why? because those two are the biggest offenders in the "one
part number fits 5 heat ranges, the customer will never know and
we couldn't give a damn--it's all about the bucks" game.

I don't disbelieve what you saw Glen, but I do have issues with
your explanation of why and how.

>Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It's a scientific principle that
>says the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Now, which is
>simpler? A or B?

>A: Your wife stepped on the wrong pedal.

>B: The cruise control on/off switch, the cruise control "set" switch, the
>brake light and cruise-kill switch, and the SBEC "no cruise control under
>30MPH, and only in the Forward direction" programming all failed at the
>same time, the cruise control engaged and pulled the throttle wide open.


>The service department that you work in must have to give away an
>awful lot of free service work if you can't tell the difference
>between a 2002 Chrysler Sebring with a 3.0 liter engine and
>1993-96 Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees with 5.2 liter engines.

HEY GEAR HEAD what does this have to do with what kind of car it is, are you
really that stupid or do you just pretend to be?
Lets talk gearhead.. give me a phone number or your yahoo id so i can im
you. since obiviously you wish to speak more and more and become close
friends. I was explaining this is possible that the accident could be
related to the cruise control servo. Sorry if i left out the finer anal
details. But that is why you are here to pick them up correct .
"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "maxpower" > wrote:
>
> > Daniel man, just because you have never experienced problems mentioned
on
> > here such as cruise control sudden accel, 85 Turbo vehicle Timing
changing
> > due to improper plugs and all that does not mean it never happens or
cant
> > happen, have an open mind, because it is real pal
>
> Two things...
>
> 1) An out of court settlement in no way constitutes proof that
> what was claimed actually happened.
>
> 2) WRT spark plugs, you are actually claiming that if I install
> Autolite, NGK, AC Delco or some brand other than Champion spark
> plugs in a 1985 ChryCo vehicle with a turbo charger, start the
> engine, disconnect the coolant sensor and check the ignition
> timing with a stroboscopic timing light, I'll see different
> timing setting between the different brands of spark plugs?

Like i said, see it for yourself, im not going to make you believe it. The
computer sees it and tries to maintian correct idle by controlling the
timing

All you've managed to do Glen is point out that there have been
failures associated with -some- cruise control systems, that does
not mean that all cruise controls or even this cruise control
will behave or -did- behave the same.
EXACTLY!!! thats all i was trying to do..TRY TO READ WHAT I SAID RATHER
THEN TRY TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT OUT OF IT,,,,, for the lame I made it easier,
read below

It was awhile ago
and cant remember the details. It was not a particular model or make vehicle
either. I believe it had something to do with the vent valve on the servo.
CAN YOU READ IT EASIER NOW IT SAYS NO A PARTICULAR MAKE???
YOUR BUTT BUDDY STERN SAID IT WASNT POSSIBLE< get you head out of his ass




"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "maxpower" > wrote:
>
> > 1) An out of court settlement in no way constitutes proof that
> > what was claimed actually happened.
> >
> > DONT NEED TO , http://www.antony-anderson.com/cruise/6-freq.htm read on
> >
> > a.. Oct 4, 1996 : Chrysler disclosed in a letter to the Office of
Defects
> > Investigation that it knew of 98 incidents of unintended acceleration
> > between 1993 and 1996 involving Cherokees and another 241 involving
Grand
> > Cherokees ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER
> > a.. A group of independent engineering experts claims to have uncovered
a
> > defect specific in the 1993-96 5.2 litre V8 Grand Cherokee. If cruise
> > control is left in the ON position a short to ground in the power
control
> > module connector can cause the vehicle's engine to race. The short is
said
> > to be caused by water, moisture etc. getting into the connector and
causing
> > corrosion. ref: See Section 9-Links & References CHRYSLER : Strategic
> > Safety. Special investigation Chrysler Cherokee 1998
>
> Okay, now where is the connection between the Jeeps, Fords,
> Buicks and radar guns aimed under the hood cited in your link and
> the 2002 Chrysler Sebring?
> All you've managed to do Glen is point out that there have been
> failures associated with -some- cruise control systems, that does
> not mean that all cruise controls or even this cruise control
> will behave or -did- behave the same.
>
> Ever do a WOT test on an engine with it in gear with an engine
> analyzer connected?
> Ever check the stall speed of a torque convertor?
>
> I have, hundreds of times, and not once were the vehicles brakes
> incapable of holding the car back.
>
> > 2) WRT spark plugs, you are actually claiming that if I install
> > > Autolite, NGK, AC Delco or some brand other than Champion spark
> > > plugs in a 1985 ChryCo vehicle with a turbo charger, start the
> > > engine, disconnect the coolant sensor and check the ignition
> > > timing with a stroboscopic timing light, I'll see different
> > > timing setting between the different brands of spark plugs?
> >
> > I AM SAYING. and not sure of all the plugs that were affected but i dont
see
> > many of these vehicles in the shop. But a/c delco and Bosch plugs and
some
> > others would cause the timing to flucuate severly at idle, CUST
COMPLAINT
> > idles very rough, Naturally if you disconnect the coolant sensor it goes
> > into limp , fan turns on and the timing is back to base timing and you
> > would get a steady reading.
>
> Whoa, stop right there.
> Then the spark plugs per-se are not causing the timing change.
> If the plugs don't change the base timing (which you seem to
> agree to) then the only thing that can be changing the timing is
> a signal sent to the logic module (since disconnecting the
> coolant sensor takes the logic module out of the picture), that
> signal most likely being from the knock sensor, due to the wrong
> heat range spark plug being used, IOWs, the same result would
> happen if the wrong heat range Champion spark plug were to be
> used, so it is NOT the brand of spark plug that is causing the
> problem, it is the implementation of heat ranges, the practice of
> part number overlap that is the actual cause.
> Specifically; the vehicles in question had the capability to
> retard timing for individual cylinders.
> Specifically: you claimed that the power module "sees" something
> from the plugs in question, yet the power module (for the sake of
> this discussion) only switches the coil primary, and whether or
> not the coolant sensor connector is connected or not, the power
> modules function in this regard does not change.
>
> I can tell you specifically which AC Delco and which Bosch spark
> plugs caused the problems that you observed;
> Delco: it was the Rapid Fires
> Bosch: it was any of their gimmicky crappy platinum plugs.
> Why? because those two are the biggest offenders in the "one
> part number fits 5 heat ranges, the customer will never know and
> we couldn't give a damn--it's all about the bucks" game.
>
> I don't disbelieve what you saw Glen, but I do have issues with
> your explanation of why and how.