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Proactive Maintenance of a 98 Camry



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 27th 05, 10:17 PM
Alex Rodriguez
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In article >, says...
>
>
>On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:26:30 -0500, DTJ > wrote:
>>According to every Honda mechanic I have asked, and that is more than
>>a couple, a timing belt failure does not lead to any significant
>>damage. Every time they recommend a change, I ask them, and they look
>>down, admit they are just trying to make more money, and walk away
>>chastened for being caught at it.

>
>I imagine your just a troll having fun at others expense here but just
>for the record the Gates book shows virtually every Honda engine from
>every yeat to be an interference engine. This means when the belt
>breaks you can bend valves or knock holes in the tops of the pistons.


I think it is foolhardy to believe a timing belt will never snap. I do know
from experience that you can get lucky and not do damage to the valves and
pistons when a belt snaps on an interference engine. This happened on my
fathers car. The old belt snapped. We towed it home and put in a new belt and
the car started right up, no problem. I have also seen other engines that were
not so lucky and almost all the valves were bent, the pistons just had some
scratches in them and did not need to be changed.
-----------------
Alex

Ads
  #32  
Old June 28th 05, 12:18 AM
Ray O
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"DTJ" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:25:41 -0500, "Ray O"
> > wrote:
>
>>This is true, however, of the 100 or so dealerships I've personally dealt
>>with, I'd say 70% were technically good, another 25% were excellent, and
>>the
>>remaining 5% were poor. The proportions of good, excellent, and poor
>>technicians who worked at the dealerships is probably about the same.
>>Your
>>chances of getting good service on your Toyota at a Toyota dealer are at
>>least as good and probably better than your chances of getting that same
>>level of technical competence at an independent shop.

>
> Statistically this is invalid. First, it is unlikely that so many are
> "excellent" while so few are "poor". More likely is that you are
> rating them unfairly, and too generously.
>


It would be invalid statistically if both the dealer and the independent
hired everyone who applied for a job without any screening and if they paid
the same. This is not the case. Dealers generally hire either experienced
technicians or someone with a formal education in automotive technology,
generaly through the Toyota Technical Education Network partnership with
selected trade schools and community colleges. Remember that the biggest
single customers most dealers have is the manufcturers through warranty
repairs and manufacturers do not pay warranty claims for repairs that do not
work. Problems with customers cars must be diagnosed with an explanation of
the cause of the failure written. If a technician replaces a $1000 ECU and
the problem still exists, the dealer will not get reimbursed for the repair.

Indepenent shops have the luxury of telling the customer to "take it to the
dealer" if they cannot diagnose a problem. Dealers do not have that luxury
and so they invest a lot of time and money sending their techicians to
factory classes.


> Second, there is no factual basis to assume that the idiots hired by a
> dealer are more intelligent than the idiots hired by an independent
> shop. In reality, the reverse is true. The reason to go to the
> dealer is not because they somehow know how to hire better mechanics,
> but because they have more reason to stand by their repairs when they
> fail.
>


Actually most dealer service managers do know how to hire better
technicians. Dealer service managers also attend factory sponsored service
management classes and Toyota's (and other manufacturers as well)
apprenticeship program provides techs with formal training beyond what
someone would learn in high school shop (which is basically nothing).

> Personally when I need service, I generally use a dealer, if and only
> if I can't do it myself, or the cost is so low as to not be worth my
> time. I double check their work as much as I would if I took it to an
> independent shop. And in the hundreds of places that have worked on
> my vehicles, almost every problem has been at a dealer. That includes
> adjusting for frequency.


If you do your own work on your cars and you still have taken them to
hundreds of places, your cars must need a lot that you cannot do, you have a
lot of cars, your cars have a lot or problems, you move around a lot, or you
have not built a rapport with someone.

Your experience with problems with service at a dealership do not fit the
manufacturer's data. If you go to an independent for oil changes, tune-up,
brakes, etc. and go to a dealership for an intermittent drivability problem
that the independent won't touch, then of course the dealership will have a
lower batting average. When you choose a dealership service department,
choose one that has received the manufacturer's Service Excellence Award
multiple times - your chances of getting good work done are a lot higher.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


  #33  
Old July 3rd 05, 04:35 AM
Bernard Farquart
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"DTJ" > wrote in message
...

>
> I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
> legend you hear on the Internet.


I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living,
and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a
timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they
are going to need more work than just a belt,
but people like to try the cheap before spending
big time cash.

I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the
crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out
why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then)

Bernard

of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it
still could pass for your urban myth, based on that





  #34  
Old July 3rd 05, 05:22 AM
DTJ
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On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 20:35:28 -0700, "Bernard Farquart"
> wrote:

>"DTJ" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
>> legend you hear on the Internet.

>
>I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living,
>and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a
>timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they
>are going to need more work than just a belt,
>but people like to try the cheap before spending
>big time cash.
>
>I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the
>crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out
>why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then)
>
>Bernard
>
>of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it
>still could pass for your urban myth, based on that


It could. But I have faith in your honesty.

Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit
that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger
sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt
failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have
higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to
hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda
to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven
harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH,
commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100.

Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having
replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter
than normal. So you have peaked my interest.
  #35  
Old July 3rd 05, 05:43 AM
Bernard Farquart
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"DTJ" > wrote in message
news
> It could. But I have faith in your honesty.
>
> Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit
> that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger
> sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt
> failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have
> higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to
> hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda
> to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven
> harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH,
> commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100.
>
> Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having
> replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter
> than normal. So you have peaked my interest.


I also had a tensioner falure in my 928, this caused one of
the camshaft gears to slip 30 degrees, this is supposed to
cause massive engine damage at more than 5 degrees, but
since I had to move the car, I put a new tensioner on and
replaced the belt, and viola! it fired right up, so some interference
engines can escape damage, if your "car-ma" is good enough. I really
don't have an explination for my luck on that one.


A thousand bucks seems silly for that service, but I suppose
it is possible, have you done much shopping around? I personally
have little faith in the dealership's service department, I find that an
independant shop that has been around for a long time may be a
better bet, but you can get burned anywhere.(it seems)

If you are in the Seattle area, I can recommend some excellent
shops.

If it were me, I would swap the belt, if you plan on keeping the car for
a long time.

Bernard



  #36  
Old July 3rd 05, 05:50 AM
Ray O
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"DTJ" > wrote in message
news
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 20:35:28 -0700, "Bernard Farquart"
> > wrote:
>
>>"DTJ" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>
>>> I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
>>> legend you hear on the Internet.

>>
>>I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living,
>>and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a
>>timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they
>>are going to need more work than just a belt,
>>but people like to try the cheap before spending
>>big time cash.
>>
>>I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the
>>crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out
>>why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then)
>>
>>Bernard
>>
>>of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it
>>still could pass for your urban myth, based on that

>
> It could. But I have faith in your honesty.
>
> Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit
> that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger
> sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt
> failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have
> higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to
> hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda
> to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven
> harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH,
> commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100.
>
> Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having
> replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter
> than normal. So you have peaked my interest.


I don't have much Honda experience, but I also have seen timing belts break
many times. I have never seen one break before 1.5 times the recommended
change interval, more often the ones I saw were around double the
recommended interval. I have seen timing chains break as well, but not
nearly as often and not in the past 10 or 15 years or so.


--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply





  #37  
Old July 3rd 05, 06:14 AM
Bernard Farquart
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"Ray O" > wrote in message
ervers.com...

> I don't have much Honda experience, but I also have seen timing belts
> break many times. I have never seen one break before 1.5 times the
> recommended change interval, more often the ones I saw were around double
> the recommended interval. I have seen timing chains break as well, but
> not nearly as often and not in the past 10 or 15 years or so.


Those lovely GM timing chain sets from the 60's made of aluminum
and nylon didnt hold up too well.



  #38  
Old July 3rd 05, 06:18 AM
Learning Richard
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Bernard Farquart wrote:
> "


dude your name is funny as hell.

ROTFLMAOUMSH

  #39  
Old July 3rd 05, 06:28 AM
Bernard Farquart
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"Learning Richard" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Bernard Farquart wrote:
>> "

>
> dude your name is funny as hell.
>
> ROTFLMAOUMSH
>

Whatever I can do to help.



  #40  
Old July 3rd 05, 08:58 PM
davidj92
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Bernard Farquart wrote:
> "Ray O" > wrote in message
> ervers.com...
>
>> I don't have much Honda experience, but I also have seen timing belts
>> break many times. I have never seen one break before 1.5 times the
>> recommended change interval, more often the ones I saw were around
>> double the recommended interval. I have seen timing chains break as
>> well, but not nearly as often and not in the past 10 or 15 years or
>> so.

>
> Those lovely GM timing chain sets from the 60's made of aluminum
> and nylon didnt hold up too well.


All of the big 3 had this type timing gears. It was a royal pain when the
teeth stripped off. If you did the job right you removed the oil pan to get
all the little pieces out so they wouldn't clog the oil pump pick-up tube. A
lot of them were done without removing pan in hopes "car-ma" (I like your
pun) was with them. Many suffered oil flow problems afterwards.
davidj92


 




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