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How clean is too clean for a fry tank?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 17th 06, 01:56 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Jolly Fisherman
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Posts: 47
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

Whenever I look at hatchery pictures the pros make their tanks look
immaculate. OK understandably. But not just free of detritus, also
free of algae. And sterile looking, without plants or any features.

I'm experimenting with breeding now. I thought I'd try using direct
lighting in a bare bottom grow out tank and allow algae to thrive. I
grew wonderful sheets of Nitrate sucking algae, and thought, hey, this
is a good thing, right? Fry from the same spawn that where in an
algae free tank and received the same diet seem to not have nearly as
deep colors. So I thought, why don't the pros use algae for diet and
supplemental filtration?

Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
plants in fry grow-out tanks?
  #2  
Old November 18th 06, 01:52 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
carlrs
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Posts: 227
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?


Jolly Fisherman wrote:
Whenever I look at hatchery pictures the pros make their tanks look
immaculate. OK understandably. But not just free of detritus, also
free of algae. And sterile looking, without plants or any features.

I'm experimenting with breeding now. I thought I'd try using direct
lighting in a bare bottom grow out tank and allow algae to thrive. I
grew wonderful sheets of Nitrate sucking algae, and thought, hey, this
is a good thing, right? Fry from the same spawn that where in an
algae free tank and received the same diet seem to not have nearly as
deep colors. So I thought, why don't the pros use algae for diet and
supplemental filtration?

Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
plants in fry grow-out tanks?


I personally have not done a lot of breeeding, but I have done
business with many a breeder.
Some algae can be fairly empty nutritional speaking with the exception
of Spirulina Algae which is not really algae (although they can be rich
in some color enhancer as you dicovered).The goldfish and koi I have
bred in ponds mostly fed on the micro organisms that thrived around the
roots of the water iris I used as a breeding ground and fry rearing
area. With these fish I supplemented with powdered spirulina flake and
boiled egg crumbles.
The breeders of the Angelfish and discus I have done business with have
used similar practices that I have observed witht the exception of the
micro organisms.

My assumption to algae used in breeding tanks is that it doesnt provide
adequet nutrition and what you discovered in the probable Hydrogen
sulfide gas trapped under your algae mat.
But I think general ease of cleaning is the overiding reason, as you
found better coloration in the fry raised in the tank with algae.
I probably didnt answer your question here, but I hope a few of my
thoughts were helpful.

  #3  
Old November 18th 06, 11:55 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Jolly Fisherman
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Posts: 47
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

Interesting.

Thinking about it a little more I'm wondering if lighting costs are an
issue. I'm wondering if there is fear of greater possibility of
bacterial growth that can cause deformities. Indeed potential
Hydrogen sulfide gas exposure would be an unnecessary risk. 2 good
sponge filters per tank and lots of water changes are starting to seem
like enough. Although I don't really see any great need for a
hobbyist like myself to growing out fry necessarily in plantless or
algaeless tanks.

Nutritionally, I was thinking simply about the color enhancing aspects
of some algae. The fry in the algae tank did not grow much faster.
But without such algae you would be introducing other color enhancing
foods at a later stage of development. I don't know if that matters.
  #4  
Old November 18th 06, 05:23 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Marco Schwarz
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Posts: 89
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

Hi..

[...described emergency room fry tanks...]

Well.., I'm sure and certain that fish fry generally love to
eat living micro food and that it will enjoy to grow up in
micro life rich tanks..

Personally I come from a fish keeping tradition where
vacuuming and weekly filter cleaning is completely unknown
but weekly water changes of 50%+ are very common..

And this is why I'm used to vote for big enough and stable
(cycled) tanks with a lot of mulm or mud - and of course a
lot of helpful plants like elodea, hornwort and java moss
for feeding growing fish fry..

I'm experimenting with breeding now.


What kind of fish..?

Well try to imagine the green algae on the substrates to be
"woods" where a lot of useful bacteria and bacteria eaters
are used to live (== bio film)..

--
cu
Marco
  #5  
Old November 18th 06, 05:53 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
[email protected]
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Posts: 20
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

It all depends on the type of fish. Most of the easy to breed species
will do best in very similar tanks to their parents. That is plenty of
things to pick on.

I have some Neolamprologus leleupi that bred three months ago in a
community tank. They are very difficult to catch so some of them were
left with their parents and a selection of other Tanganyika cichlids.
The ones I left in the tank are growing much faster that the ones
taken out and put in a fry tank. The basic difference is that the
community tank is full of bits for them to pick on all day while the
"clean" fry tank just gets four or five feeds a day.

When I was into breeding fish in a big way and had 50 tanks, I learned
that the most important things needed to grow fry is a continuous
supply of suitably food and frequent partial water changes.

Steve

--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com
  #6  
Old November 19th 06, 08:23 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Jolly Fisherman
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Posts: 47
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:23:44 +0100, Marco Schwarz
wrote:

Hi..

[...described emergency room fry tanks...]

Well.., I'm sure and certain that fish fry generally love to
eat living micro food and that it will enjoy to grow up in
micro life rich tanks..

Personally I come from a fish keeping tradition where
vacuuming and weekly filter cleaning is completely unknown
but weekly water changes of 50%+ are very common..


I was doing weekly changes because my life has been really hectic. It
was also good because there were so many little critters for the young
fry to feast on. I would have thrown that away being too clean.

Now I'm doing about 80% changes every couple days and feeding much
more. That's about when the tanks start to take on a bit of an odor.
Growth rate has been great. I'm inclined to believe ppl who claim
that frequent large water changes aid in growth rates. It does seem
to slow somewhat when I stretch out the water changes.

And this is why I'm used to vote for big enough and stable
(cycled) tanks with a lot of mulm or mud - and of course a
lot of helpful plants like elodea, hornwort and java moss
for feeding growing fish fry..


I'm with you.

I'm experimenting with breeding now.


What kind of fish..?


At the moment Opaline Gourami and Black Lace / Golden Angel hybrids (I
don't know if there is a name for that). Nothing terribly difficult
as I'm a newb.

Well try to imagine the green algae on the substrates to be
"woods" where a lot of useful bacteria and bacteria eaters
are used to live (== bio film)..


Yes which is one of the reasons I think it's a good idea. From what I
understand there is some belief that exposure to water quality
problems and certain bacteria in early stages of development can lead
to deformities. So I wonder if commercial breeders see algae as a
2-edged sword? and that's why they are unwilling to pay to support it
with artificial lighting. But such claims are so unspecific I wonder
if it is superstition.

Before these spawns I read a lot about the prevalence of deformities,
and therefore the need to cull, and how it is common for growth rates
to be so dissimilar that is possible for faster growing fry to eat the
smaller ones. I have culled the slowest growers, and lost a lot due
to my own carelessness (and lack of desire to raise many hundreds of
fish) but interestingly those things I read have not panned out at
all. I'm inclined to believe the algae and critters were helpful in
early development.
  #7  
Old November 19th 06, 06:24 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Marco Schwarz
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Posts: 89
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

Hi..

At the moment Opaline Gourami and Black Lace / Golden
Angel hybrids (I don't know if there is a name for that).


Fine..

[...hobbyist breeding versus commercial breeding...]

Well.., hobbyist breeding and commercial breeding sometimes
seem to be two different universes. ;-)

Before these spawns I read a lot about the prevalence of
deformities, and therefore the need to cull, and how it is
common for growth rates to be so dissimilar that is
possible for faster growing fry to eat the
smaller ones.


Hmm., in nature smallness means danger of life and only the
smartest and fittest fry will survive. The magic word is
selection. That's real life and the necessity of selection
is the first lesson a hobbyist breeder has to learn. Well
sounds a little bit precocious I know..

I'm inclined to believe the algae and critters were
helpful in early development.


Good luck..!
--
cu
Marco
  #8  
Old November 21st 06, 12:17 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Köi-Lö
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Posts: 117
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?


"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
...
Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
plants in fry grow-out tanks?

======================
I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae to
grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs. See
website below.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*




  #9  
Old November 22nd 06, 01:00 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Jolly Fisherman
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Posts: 47
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:17:33 -0600, Köi-Lö wrote:

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
.. .
Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
plants in fry grow-out tanks?

======================
I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae to
grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs. See
website below.


Yes and large scale fish farmers grow out their fish in massive
outdoor tanks that cannot be algae wiped constantly either. I would
not attempt to debate that that approach is not viable, especially as
these creatures reproduce quite well in even larger and more
biologically complex environments.

While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
would be preferable.

Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?
  #10  
Old November 22nd 06, 02:32 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
[email protected]
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Posts: 20
Default How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:00:28 GMT, Jolly Fisherman
wrote:

While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
would be preferable.


Because some people believe all the nonsense about diseases spread in
anything other than sterile environment. After 30 years breeding
fishes I've never needed to keep fry in sterile tanks. I do use clean
tanks but, as I said before, fry grow fastest with continual feeding
and frequent water changes. It's just hard work!

--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com
 




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