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#1
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Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames
"There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid
fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable." Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek, professor of civil and environmental engineering at Berkeley, conducted a detailed analysis of the energy input-yield ratios of producing ethanol from corn, switch grass and wood biomass as well as for producing biodiesel from soybean and sunflower plants. Their report is published in Natural Resources Research (Vol. 14:1, 65-76). In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol production, the study found that: -- corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; -- switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and -- wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced. In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that: -- soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and -- sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced. In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures were not included in the analysis. "The United State desperately needs a liquid fuel replacement for oil in the near future," says Pimentel, "but producing ethanol or biodiesel from plant biomass is going down the wrong road, because you use more energy to produce these fuels than you get out from the combustion of these products." Although Pimentel advocates the use of burning biomass to produce thermal energy (to heat homes, for example), he deplores the use of biomass for liquid fuel. "The government spends more than $3 billion a year to subsidize ethanol production when it does not provide a net energy balance or gain, is not a renewable energy source or an economical fuel. Further, its production and use contribute to air, water and soil pollution and global warming," Pimentel says. He points out that the vast majority of the subsidies do not go to farmers but to large ethanol-producing corporations. "Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's energy security, its agriculture, economy or the environment," says Pimentel. "Ethanol production requires large fossil energy input, and therefore, it is contributing to oil and natural gas imports and U.S. deficits." He says the country should instead focus its efforts on producing electrical energy from photovoltaic cells, wind power and burning biomass and producing fuel from hydrogen conversion. Source: Cornell University |
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#2
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And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of Canada. |
#3
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"RichA" > wrote in message ... > And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... > > Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada > announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants > across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture > and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of > Canada. What do you expect from a morally and ethically bankrupt government? That's the problem of over taxation (read huge budget surpluses), they become the government's "buy votes" slush fund. -- Richard '94 GT 'vert Under Drive Pulleys Transgo HD2 Reprogramming Kit High Stall Torque Converter 4:10 Gears Gripp Sub Frame Connectors (welded) FRPP Aluminum Drive shaft FRPP M5400-A Suspension Laser Red |
#4
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RichA wrote:
> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... > > Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada > announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants > across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture > and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of > Canada. I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best fuel source (I don't). |
#5
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On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:35:37 GMT, "Richard" > wrote:
> >"RichA" > wrote in message .. . >> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... >> >> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada >> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants >> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture >> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of >> Canada. > >What do you expect from a morally and ethically bankrupt government? That's >the problem of over taxation (read huge budget surpluses), they become the >government's "buy votes" slush fund. So I emailed the study to him (Mitchell). I'm SURE he'll read it and act according. |
#6
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On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:40:33 -0400, pawn > wrote:
>RichA wrote: > >> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... >> >> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada >> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants >> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture >> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of >> Canada. > > >I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's >of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is >alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best >fuel source (I don't). How about a plutonium battery powered steam-driven car? |
#7
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It may not be the best source.... but it's the best source readily
available right now. On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:40:33 -0400, pawn > wrote: >RichA wrote: > >> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... >> >> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada >> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants >> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture >> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of >> Canada. > > >I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's >of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is >alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best >fuel source (I don't). Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address |
#8
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And perhaps every vehicle could be used as a weapon by terrorists? You
left out the solar/wind subsystems. Might as well call Fred Flintstone. It seems possible that in the post apocalyptic world, after the energy wars have died down, we'll be back to animal power and walking. On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:34:14 -0400, RichA > wrote: >On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:40:33 -0400, pawn > wrote: > >>RichA wrote: >> >>> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... >>> >>> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada >>> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants >>> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture >>> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of >>> Canada. >> >> >>I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's >>of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is >>alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best >>fuel source (I don't). > >How about a plutonium battery powered steam-driven car? Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address |
#9
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Its very likely that there is not one single replacement for dino-juice. Dino, bio, hydrogen, natrual gas, hybrid, eletric, etc will all have their role to play once Oil hits $100 a barrel (which at the rate we're going could be in two years, but more like 10-20). RichA wrote: > And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... > > Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada > announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants > across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture > and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of > Canada. |
#10
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Or there is no crisis at all. And no need for replacement.
It's like housing. Speculation is driving the prices. Remember when Yahoo was a "bargain" stock at 100 bucks per share? Or Cisco? Irrationality is driving up prices....just like the irrationality in housing prices. First off, yes there ARE alternatives to "dino" juice. Thermal Depolymerization. Bio Diesel. Methane Hydrates. And biodiesel enthusiasts are as hard core as any mustang enthusast, even home brewing thier own fuel. There is even debate as to the origin of petroleum itself. Whether the earth produces petroleum naturally, versus a fossil/aging process. It's called abiotic oil aka the "Russian-Ukranian Theory of Petroleum Genesis", developed by (gasp!) Soviet petroleum engineers. In the early 1970's we were "running out of oil" and the earth was headed cataclysmically into an Ice Age. Now, we're "running out of oil" and we're headed for "global warming". Interesting how over 30 years the theorys change, but the hysteria remains. Too bad TtT ain't here any more (you old timers know who I mean) as I believe he was/is a petroleum engineer and might be able to add light to the subject. And as far as adding carbon to the atmosphere and the hysterics about global warming, when the weather service, the NOAA or whomever can get the weather right for 10 days in a row, I'll believe the climate models for 100+ years. Othersiws I gotta pull my skeptic card and say "proove it". > wrote in message ... > > Its very likely that there is not one single replacement for > dino-juice. Dino, bio, hydrogen, natrual gas, hybrid, eletric, etc will > all have their role to play once Oil hits $100 a barrel (which at the > rate we're going could be in two years, but more like 10-20). > > > > RichA wrote: > > > And of course Canada's idiots in government go and... > > > > Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada > > announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants > > across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture > > and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of > > Canada. |
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